# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 406
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8102 "2013-11-19T17:57:31Z")
Also, in theory, the most a _character_ would know is “Something bad might happen but something good might happen” with little concrete knowledge of the exact possible good/bad things. Much less have a list of every effect in front of them to run the odds. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8103 "2013-11-19T18:05:26Z")
> [@Garula](#): > > Elan might not have a lot of raw intelligence, but his charisma must be through the roof. That’s a pretty darn impressive act of persuasion. Well, yes. Aside from ineffectually prancing about playing the flute at monsters, diplomacy (both personal and mass media) is what Bards _do_. It’s quite possibly the one thing nobody can touch them at, except mayyybe Sorcerers and whatever spontaneous casting priest classes there are - Favoured Soul and… Spirit Shaman I think was the Druid one ? Something like that. Oracles in _Pathfinder_ as well. But all of those classes have few skill points, so maybe they’ll be quite good at diplomacy OR bluff OR intimidate. Bards will have all three maxed, Perform too (which will further boost the speechifying, depending on the specific kind of bard we’re talking about), and can further boost their skill levels by… well, prancing about playing the flute at them, really :). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8104 "2013-11-19T18:09:49Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And of course, adventurers are, by their very nature, inherently risk-takers. As are people who are twenty minutes of dice rolling away from a new character. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8105 "2013-11-19T18:14:12Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Well, yes. Aside from ineffectually prancing about playing the flute at monsters, diplomacy (both personal and mass media) is what Bards _do_. It’s quite possibly the one thing nobody can touch them at, except mayyybe Sorcerers and whatever spontaneous casting priest classes there are - Favoured Soul and… Spirit Shaman I think was the Druid one ? Something like that. Oracles in _Pathfinder_ as well. > > But all of those classes have few skill points, so maybe they’ll be quite good at diplomacy OR bluff OR intimidate. Bards will have all three maxed, Perform too (which will further boost the speechifying, depending on the specific kind of bard we’re talking about), and can further boost their skill levels by… well, prancing about playing the flute at them, really :). It’s what Tarquin was talking about when he said Bards should be ruling the world. Their skill is to get other people to do what they tell them. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8106 "2013-11-19T20:20:40Z")
Heh. I just noticed the title of strip #931: “My two dads”. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8107 "2013-11-19T20:30:39Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s what Tarquin was talking about when he said Bards should be ruling the world. Their skill is to get other people to do what they tell them. No, that’s not what he meant at all. He’s talking about the bard’s (alleged) ability to manipulate the dramatic conventions of the story he’s currently inhabiting, to achieve specific outcomes. Julio, for example, understands dramatic conventions well enough to know that, if he shows up in the story again, he’ll likely die. So he wasn’t going to show up again. That’s exactly the sort of thing Tarquin was talking about, and has nothing to do with Julio being persuasive, just genre-savvy. (I say “alleged” because there’s no particular evidence that bards are better at this than anyone else: Elan is good at it, and a bard, but Tarquin is even better, and is not. I don’t think Julio has any bards levels, either, but I could be wrong.) ---
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8108 "2013-11-20T03:44:41Z")
> [@Garula](#): > > Yeah, Elan was mentioned as having 18 charisma way back when. My guess is that was his starting charisma from back when he was level 1. By now, he’s probably increased it by 3 or 4 points from levels, and probably has a +4 or +6 item, so he’s likely operating in the mid-20s. Unless I missed something really radical in the 3.5 rules, you don’t get to increase attribute scores just from leveling up. You need high powered magic of some kind to do it, whether ioun stones, books, or something else of that sort. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8109 "2013-11-20T03:58:25Z")
> [@Lok](#): > > Unless I missed something really radical in the 3.5 rules, you don’t get to increase attribute scores just from leveling up. You need high powered magic of some kind to do it, whether ioun stones, books, or something else of that sort. You deffo missed something :). You now get one attribute point per 4 levels, to allocate however you wish. Heroes aren’t just born : they’re also self-made :p. ---
**Author:** ![Aestivalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Aestivalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aestivalis)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8110 "2013-11-20T04:10:17Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > You deffo missed something :). You now get one attribute point per 4 levels, to allocate however you wish. Heroes aren’t just born : they’re also self-made :p. But this story uses 3.5 rules, so that rule would not be in place. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8111 "2013-11-20T04:19:25Z")
> [@Aestivalis](#): > > But this story uses 3.5 rules, so that rule would not be in place. That rule is in 3.5. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8112 "2013-11-20T05:03:38Z")
> [@Garula](#): > > Yeah, Elan was mentioned as having 18 charisma way back when. My guess is that was his starting charisma from back when he was level 1. By now, he’s probably increased it by 3 or 4 points from levels, and probably has a +4 or +6 item, so he’s likely operating in the mid-20s. If you want a challenge, try to figure out what Elan’s Wisdom level is. On the one hand, Wisdom defines how aware a character is of what’s going on and, on that basis, Elan’s extraordinary genre savviness would make him at least an 18. But Wisdom also determines a character’s common sense and willpower and Elan displays very little of these attributes. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8113 "2013-11-20T06:03:55Z")
> [@Aestivalis](#): > > But this story uses 3.5 rules, so that rule would not be in place. It’s the 3.5 rule. I don’t know the first thing about 4th ed. Yes, I realize my “now” is now a bit dated :p. ---
**Author:** ![Garula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@Garula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garula)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8114 "2013-11-20T06:59:25Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Well, yes. Aside from ineffectually prancing about playing the flute at monsters, diplomacy (both personal and mass media) is what Bards _do_. It’s quite possibly the one thing nobody can touch them at, except mayyybe Sorcerers and whatever spontaneous casting priest classes there are - Favoured Soul and… Spirit Shaman I think was the Druid one ? Something like that. Oracles in _Pathfinder_ as well. > > But all of those classes have few skill points, so maybe they’ll be quite good at diplomacy OR bluff OR intimidate. Bards will have all three maxed, Perform too (which will further boost the speechifying, depending on the specific kind of bard we’re talking about), and can further boost their skill levels by… well, prancing about playing the flute at them, really :). Bard’s in particular get Glibness, which is just a delightful spell. I think my all time favorite D&D character build might be the Jumplomancer. Somewhere, there’s an ability that lets you use another skill in place of Diplomacy for checks to change an NPC’s attitude toward your character. Jump is particularly good for pumping up, since you get huge bonuses for increasing your movement speed. This character would basically get a running start, jump into the air, stay there for a few rounds, and land. The Jump roll would be high value enough to pretty much guarantee any NPC who witnessed it would become a fanatical devotee. Definitely a build that works with the rules as written but no GM would ever allow. Has Elan ever failed a Will save? I suppose he failed against a Suggestion from Nale, but he was the only one to break out of Girard’s illusion. My guess is that his Wisdom and Will saves are second only to Durkon in the group. Wisdom is kind of a weird stat in D&D because it covers a bunch of things that aren’t really related. It determines how good your senses are, despite the fact that it increases as you age. Elan may be flighty, naive, and lacking common sense, but he also seems to be a font of genuine insight. He’s surprisingly mature in his relationship with Haley and more often than not is the one that keeps the group pointed in the right moral direction. And really, he’s the one that seems to enjoy life the most and keep things in perspective, which is a pretty wise attitude if you ask me. If I were to guess Elan’s starting stat spread, I would say something like 10 14 12 8 16 18. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8115 "2013-11-20T07:59:27Z")
> [@Garula](#): > > I think my all time favorite D&D character build might be the Jumplomancer. Somewhere, there’s an ability that lets you use another skill in place of Diplomacy for checks to change an NPC’s attitude toward your character. Jump is particularly good for pumping up, since you get huge bonuses for increasing your movement speed. This character would basically get a running start, jump into the air, stay there for a few rounds, and land. The Jump roll would be high value enough to pretty much guarantee any NPC who witnessed it would become a fanatical devotee. Definitely a build that works with the rules as written but no GM would ever allow. Without the need for an obscure feat, in \*Pathfinder \*Bards can substitute their Perform score for two other “related” skill rolls, the specific ones depending on the nature of the Perform skill. So for example you might get to use your Perform(Acting) skill instead of Disguise and Bluff. So far, so good. The funny part comes where they had to find 2 skills to associate to every type of Perform for balance purposes. Which is why Wind Instruments can somehow be used in lieu of Diplomacy. Fuck talking, Imma blow mah French horn ! Keyboards, too, but that’s less funny a mental image (although adventuring with a harpsicord must never get old). Also at level 20, they can straight up murder people with their Performance. Save vs. lute or die : that’s the power of RAWK. Melt them faces ! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8116 "2013-11-20T11:58:25Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Also at level 20, they can straight up murder people with their Performance. Save vs. lute or die : that’s the power of RAWK. Melt them faces ! “What powers you ask? I dunno how 'bout the power of flight? That do anything for ya? That’s levitation, holmes. How 'bout the power to kill a yak from 200 yards away… with mind bullets! That’s telekinesis, Kyle. How 'bout the power… to move you?” ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8117 "2013-11-20T12:07:16Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If you want a challenge, try to figure out what Elan’s Wisdom level is. On the one hand, Wisdom defines how aware a character is of what’s going on and, on that basis, Elan’s extraordinary genre savviness would make him at least an 18. But Wisdom also determines a character’s common sense and willpower and Elan displays very little of these attributes. Really? Because I’ve never seen him as being weak-willed, and he’s displayed remarkable amounts of common sense at times. In fact, I’d say Elan is the poster boy for low-Int high-Wis characters. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8118 "2013-11-20T12:29:41Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Really? Because I’ve never seen him as being weak-willed, and he’s displayed remarkable amounts of common sense at times. In fact, I’d say Elan is the poster boy for low-Int high-Wis characters. You mean other than [the time](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0118.html) he weakened the fabric of the universe? Or his [inability](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0161.html) to figure out why Haley was angry? Or [how long](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0726.html) it took him to figure out his father’s true nature? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8119 "2013-11-20T12:34:58Z")
Well, for one, he’s probably added a few points over the levels. But besides, what he did was impulsive, sure - but is impulsiveness a sign of low wisdom? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8120 "2013-11-20T16:43:20Z")
Personally, I think that Stickworld has a genre-savvy skill, that’s based on Charisma. Elan has a great Cha and has maxed it out, so he’s one of the most genre-savvy people in the world. Likewise Tarquin and Julio. Xykon probably only has one rank, but he has a monstrously-high Charisma, and so he’s still pretty good at it. Haley’s started investing in it since she and Elan became a couple, but she’s still well behind him. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8121 "2013-11-20T16:46:34Z")
Yes, I agree that all of Elan’s genre-savviness is for the most part a side-effect of his charisma. I would also say that, yes, impulsiveness, especially with a blithe disregard for consequences, is typical of low wisdom. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=405) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=407)