# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 409
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8162 "2013-11-22T23:08:12Z")
Though Tarquin and Laurin could teleport to Julio’s airship. That possibility has to be covered in some way, even if Laurin has to say she’s running low on power points. Or maybe it’s “Too dangerous”. Or they try it and it doesn’t work. Or Tarquin is defeated. Or mollified. Or something. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8163 "2013-11-22T23:50:39Z")
Or Tarkie decides that killing Julio will be proper motivation for Elan to swear revenge on, and tells Laurin that the favor is still on if she helps. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8164 "2013-11-23T00:23:24Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Or Tarkie decides that killing Julio will be proper motivation for Elan to swear revenge on, and tells Laurin that the favor is still on if she helps. It’s not clear if the favor is off. Rereading the terms of the [deal](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0924.html), they left things surprisingly vague. Does Roy have to die for Laurin to have earned her favor? Or does she already have it for going with them? ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8165 "2013-11-23T00:28:46Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Though Tarquin and Laurin could teleport to Julio’s airship. That possibility has to be covered in some way, even if Laurin has to say she’s running low on power points. Or maybe it’s “Too dangerous”. Or they try it and it doesn’t work. Or Tarquin is defeated. Or mollified. Or something. I would assume a scoundrel as reknown as Julio has some means to keep the fuzz or Jealous husbands from doing that. It’s not the most stealthy hideout. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8166 "2013-11-23T00:34:32Z")
Laurin’s task for receiving her favor could be argued that she just needed to open a wormhole. Realistically, I’d think anyone would assume that she’d help in killing Roy but if I were her, I’d consider it a safe point that she got Tarquin there and assisted and Tarquin’s failure to finish the job during the initial attack is his own problem. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8167 "2013-11-23T19:14:10Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Laurin’s task for receiving her favor could be argued that she just needed to open a wormhole. Realistically, I’d think anyone would assume that she’d help in killing Roy but if I were her, I’d consider it a safe point that she got Tarquin there and assisted and Tarquin’s failure to finish the job during the initial attack is his own problem. I thought she said she’d open a wormhole for free, but if he wanted her to help in the fight, he had to owe her a favor. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8168 "2013-11-23T19:52:02Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > It can be as foolish to be overly cautious, as to be reckless. The wise person can assess and understand risks, and make a clear-headed decision as to whether the outcome justifies action, being able to foresee (whether through intuition or whatever) the likely consequences of said action. > > Elan demonstrates little of this. He is reckless and shows a blithe disregard for consequences. He trusts his genre-savviness more than is warranted by the situation, which more than once has gotten him and the OOTS into serious trouble. That isn’t wisdom. When has it gotten him in trouble? Not saying you’re wrong, just that I don’t remember. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8169 "2013-11-23T20:46:51Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > **I thought she said she’d open a wormhole for free** , but if he wanted her to help in the fight, he had to owe her a favor. The link that is referenced in post 8163 confirms that. I agree that it’s vague if Laurin is already owed a favor, but my feeling is that since she participated in melee, Tarquin should already be on the hook. She did do more than open a wormhole (or seven). ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8170 "2013-11-24T04:59:00Z")
TowelFace/Miron’s obligation was: Tarquin: “you’re coming with me” Miron: “Okay, let’s go kill some dudes” Which sounds to me like: (Tarquin) “do what I tell you to until the engagement is finished,” at which time his obligation is done. Laurin made the same agreement IMO. And the engagement isn’t finished. She’ll do what he tells her to until it’s done or she must bail out, but until then she’s serving him, and continues to, per their agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8171 "2013-11-24T14:29:20Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > TowelFace/Miron’s obligation was: > > Tarquin: “you’re coming with me” > Miron: “Okay, let’s go kill some dudes” > > Which sounds to me like: (Tarquin) “do what I tell you to until the engagement is finished,” at which time his obligation is done. Laurin made the same agreement IMO. And the engagement isn’t finished. She’ll do what he tells her to until it’s done or she must bail out, but until then she’s serving him, and continues to, per their agreement. Like I said, it wasn’t clear. But I think Laurin could make a reasonable argument that “You’re coming with me” was the agreement and that by accompanying Tarquin through the portal, she has fulfilled her end of the bargain and Tarquin now owes her a favor even though Roy escaped (assuming he does so). Tarquin would probably counter that coming with him was an open-ended agreement and not limited to their first stop. If he goes in pursuit of Roy, Laurin has to go with him or forfeit her favor. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8172 "2013-11-24T15:08:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Like I said, it wasn’t clear. But I think Laurin could make a reasonable argument that “You’re coming with me” was the agreement and that by accompanying Tarquin through the portal, she has fulfilled her end of the bargain and Tarquin now owes her a favor even though Roy escaped (assuming he does so). That was my reading: (1) I’ll open a portal although I don’t owe you a favor (2) Although, since I’m doing this [opening the portal] you should owe ME a favor (3) I have a favor in mind and you agreed so here’s your portal But it was all very vaguely defined anyway. Maybe that’ll be a point later on, maybe not. I can’t believe that we’ll never get to find out what Laurin’s price was though so that should tie into the resolution of her agreement. In fact, Laurin’s words were “I’ll open a wormhole but I don’t owe you any favors, Tarquin. Although, **you** could owe **me** one if this means that much to you.” Laurin never agrees to “go kill some dudes” just to provide transport. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8173 "2013-11-24T17:23:25Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > That was my reading: > > (1) I’ll open a portal although I don’t owe you a favor > (2) Although, since I’m doing this [opening the portal] you should owe ME a favor > (3) I have a favor in mind and you agreed so here’s your portal > > But it was all very vaguely defined anyway. Maybe that’ll be a point later on, maybe not. I can’t believe that we’ll never get to find out what Laurin’s price was though so that should tie into the resolution of her agreement. > > In fact, Laurin’s words were “I’ll open a wormhole but I don’t owe you any favors, Tarquin. Although, **you** could owe **me** one if this means that much to you.” Laurin never agrees to “go kill some dudes” just to provide transport. That’s somewhat different than my interpretation. When Tarquin [took off](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html) for reinforcements, he was able to tell Miron and Laurin that he was calling them in for team business - they were going to assist Malack and capture the Gate. But once they arrived and found Malack was dead and the Gate was destroyed, there was no longer any reason for them to stay. Killing Roy and manipulating Elan was Tarquin’s [personal concern](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0921.html) and nothing to do with business. So Laurin essentially said she’d open a portal for Tarquin before leaving as a freebie because she was already there. But she wasn’t going any further in pursuit of the Order now that there were no business-related goals involved in the pursuit. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8174 "2013-11-24T17:39:23Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > That was my reading: > > (1) I’ll open a portal although I don’t owe you a favor > (2) Although, since I’m doing this [opening the portal] you should owe ME a favor > (3) I have a favor in mind and you agreed so here’s your portal No. Opening the portal was free. Actually joining the attack required a favor in payment. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Shine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr_shine/32/464_2.png) [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8175 "2013-11-29T23:51:16Z")
New one up [http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0933.html](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0933.html) Nicely played by Elan. End of book in 934 or 935 I expect. ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8176 "2013-11-30T00:04:18Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > New one up > > [933 Getting a Little Carried Away - Giant in the Playground Games](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0933.html) > > Nicely played by Elan. > End of book in 934 or 935 I expect. I _love_ that Julio puts his finger exactly where Tarquin’s (possible) “Achilles’ Heel” is located: In Tarquin’s unshakable belief that everything revolves around him, that the story is subservient to _ **him** _ and him alone. I have the feeling that that will be one of the keys of the ultimate downfall of Tarquin. (“Downfall”… Why do I have this mental image of Tarquin in an underground fortress, having lost touch with reality and screaming at his advisors and remaining minions, the Empire of Blood burning around him, and him being inexorably driven to suicide…) ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8177 "2013-11-30T00:49:31Z")
Methinks Tarquin has sufficient INT, WIS and genre saavy to work out the implications of Julio’s parting line. Maybe not the correct implications. But enough to consider the possibility that he possesses a blind spot. Full disclosure: upthread I implied that a member of Oots would deliver the bad news. It appears that I was bollixed by Burlew again. ETA: “Half” your problem, T: interesting. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8178 "2013-11-30T01:12:44Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > End of book in 934 or 935 I expect. Probably not quite that soon, but we’re definitely starting the denouement next strip. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8179 "2013-11-30T01:24:50Z")
The weird thing is Tarquin actually succeeded and he’s too blind to realize it. Elan really did step up when Roy and the others were threatened. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8180 "2013-11-30T01:33:00Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The weird thing is Tarquin actually succeeded and he’s too blind to realize it. Elan really did step up when Roy and the others were threatened. But he’ll step back and let Roy take over again, something which would piss Tarquin off to see. Roy is the party leader; he’s a better leader than Elan for almost all circumstances, and Elan knows it. And unlike Tarquin he has no problem with it. For that matter, unlike Tarquin Roy has no problem with someone solving a problem their own way on their own initiative; he’s going to congratulate Elan for his success if he says anything at all, not be mad that Elan didn’t do things his way. Nale was right about his complaints that Tarquin wanted him and everyone else to just be cogs in his master plan. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8181 "2013-11-30T03:51:42Z")
So I think the folks here who argued Laurin would do whatever Tarkie said to Julio are in the clear. Gee, I was one of them. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=408) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=410)