# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 410
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8182 "2013-11-30T04:16:57Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > For that matter, unlike Tarquin Roy has no problem with someone solving a problem their own way on their own initiative; he’s going to congratulate Elan for his success if he says anything at all, not be mad that Elan didn’t do things his way. Nale was right about his complaints that Tarquin wanted him and everyone else to just be cogs in his master plan. The thing is Roy wasn’t always like that. He used to feel that things had to be done a certain correct way. That’s been Roy’s character growth - he’s learned that people can do things differently than the way he would do it and their way can be as good as his own. Roy has learned to listen to other people just as Elan has learned some responsibility, Haley has learned some trust, Vaarsuvius has learned some humility, and even Belkar has learned some empathy. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8183 "2013-11-30T06:22:27Z")
I’d argue Belkar has grown the most of any of them. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8184 "2013-11-30T07:47:56Z")
So we now have the name of one Mechane crew. I assume Bandana’s crewmates are Eyepatch and Blueshirt, right? ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8185 "2013-11-30T10:37:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The thing is Roy wasn’t always like that. He used to feel that things had to be done a certain correct way. > > That’s been Roy’s character growth - he’s learned that people can do things differently than the way he would do it and their way can be as good as his own. Roy has learned to listen to other people just as Elan has learned some responsibility, Haley has learned some trust, Vaarsuvius has learned some humility, and even Belkar has learned some empathy. And Durkon has learned the value of 5,000 SPF sunscreen. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8186 "2013-11-30T15:26:34Z")
See also, for instance, Roy asking Haley to double-check his reasoning when it comes to thinking sneaky or deceptively, since he’s realized that she’s better at it than him. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8187 "2013-11-30T16:18:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > When has it gotten him in trouble? Not saying you’re wrong, just that I don’t remember. Sorry, I missed this and never responded. How about this: when [Elan is captured](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0156.html) in the bandit camp, manages to escape, but decides it’s his “[solemn duty](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0160.html)” to seduce the sexy bandit leader, and sneaks back into camp to do just that. [Eventually the entire OOTS is captured or down and out](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), and Durkon barely manages to save through them via [a bizarre accident and a goofy tribal rule](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8188 "2013-11-30T17:05:52Z")
> [@shantih](#): > > And Durkon has learned the value of 5,000 SPF sunscreen. Actually I predicted Durkon’s death over a year ago based on this issue. All of the other chararcters were developing but Durkon was still essentially the same chararcter he had been when the strip began. So I figured Durkon’s role in the story would be as a catalyst - he was going to be a main character who would die. His death would change the other characters and would also change the way readers saw the story. I’ll concede I didn’t foresee the vampire angle. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Shine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr_shine/32/464_2.png) [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8189 "2013-11-30T17:16:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But he’ll step back and let Roy take over again, something which would piss Tarquin off to see. Roy is the party leader; he’s a better leader than Elan for almost all circumstances, and Elan knows it. And unlike Tarquin he has no problem with it. > > For that matter, unlike Tarquin Roy has no problem with someone solving a problem their own way on their own initiative; he’s going to congratulate Elan for his success if he says anything at all, not be mad that Elan didn’t do things his way. Nale was right about his complaints that Tarquin wanted him and everyone else to just be cogs in his master plan. Although Roy is the party leader, and Tarquin _thinks_ he wants Elan to usurp that role, I think what Taruin \*really \*wants, but doesn’t realise, is for Elan to be the hero of the story; and I think he got that but is too blind to notice. When all’s said and done, I think OotS, although an ensemble piece, will be Elan’s story more than anybody else’s. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8190 "2013-11-30T17:27:28Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > When all’s said and done, I think OotS, although an ensemble piece, will be Elan’s story more than anybody else’s. That only seems to be the case because so much of the last chapter has involved Tarquin. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8191 "2013-11-30T17:28:59Z")
I wonder if we’ll see Hilgya again when we reach the dwarven lands? Maybe she’ll Command Durkon? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8192 "2013-11-30T22:14:44Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > Although Roy is the party leader, and Tarquin _thinks_ he wants Elan to usurp that role, I think what Taruin \*really \*wants, but doesn’t realise, is for Elan to be the hero of the story; and I think he got that but is too blind to notice. When all’s said and done, I think OotS, although an ensemble piece, will be Elan’s story more than anybody else’s. Burlew has said that Roy is the central character of the story. He was the one who brought the group together and he was the one who got them working against Xykon. And when Roy was dead, the group fell apart and the effort against Xykon collapsed. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8193 "2013-11-30T23:57:17Z")
FWIW, before Xykon’s plan was revealed as threatening the entire world, the only reason there was a group in the first place and the Order was trying to destroy him, was because of Roy. Well, Roy’s father’s Dramatic Blood Oath of Revenge and Roy’s spite for his old man’s disregard for non-Wizards, but that counts. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8194 "2013-12-01T00:00:15Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I wonder if we’ll see Hilgya again when we reach the dwarven lands? Maybe she’ll Command Durkon? Can’t. Undead are immune to mind fuckery. Not that it’d have been a walk in the park to induce any sort of mind effect on a high level Cleric 🙂 (since they have high Will saves naturally, plus they tend to have stellar Wisdom which further boosts Will saves) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8195 "2013-12-01T00:07:10Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Can’t. Undead are immune to mind fuckery. Not that it’d have been a walk in the park to induce any sort of mind effect on a high level Cleric 🙂 (since they have high Will saves naturally, plus they tend to have stellar Wisdom which further boosts Will saves) Command Undead isn’t mind fuckery, it’s a class feature for evil clerics. (Well, Rebuke Undead is a class feature, and if you score high enough on your roll, you get to command them. Which is almost certainly going to be impossible for Helga, given how many HD Durkon must have.) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8196 "2013-12-01T00:09:32Z")
D’oh. Forgot about that. There’s the spell version, too ! Still has to overcome the Will save hurdle, but… ---
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8197 "2013-12-01T03:34:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Actually I predicted Durkon’s death over a year ago based on this issue. All of the other chararcters were developing but Durkon was still essentially the same chararcter he had been when the strip began. So I figured Durkon’s role in the story would be as a catalyst - he was going to be a main character who would die. His death would change the other characters and would also change the way readers saw the story. > > I’ll concede I didn’t foresee the vampire angle. Of course, Durkon’s death was foretold a [little farther back than that](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8198 "2013-12-01T05:18:21Z")
> [@Lok](#): > > Of course, Durkon’s death was foretold a [little farther back than that](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html). I mentioned that as well when I made my prediction. I pointed out that if Durkon was still alive at the end of the story, it would leave the Oracle’s prediction as a dangling plot point. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8199 "2013-12-01T07:26:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Command Undead isn’t mind fuckery, it’s a class feature for evil clerics. > > (Well, Rebuke Undead is a class feature, and if you score high enough on your roll, you get to command them. Which is almost certainly going to be impossible for Helga, given how many HD Durkon must have.) There is an interesting plot question. If you are a character nemesis(not that Hilgya is) and your tagonist gains vampire psuedo-levels do you get to match? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8200 "2013-12-01T10:24:29Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > If you are a character nemesis(not that Hilgya is) Regardless of the rest, I’ll point out that when they met they were evenly matched so it’s entirely possible that she is his nemesis. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8201 "2013-12-01T10:40:16Z")
Let’s do some maths. Hilgya will be 15th level to match Durkon. Assume her Knowledge (Religion) score is at least +5 so she gets the +2 bonus on the turning check. So Hilgya would roll d20+Cha Mod+2. Give her a Cha Mod of +1 to make it d20+3 and her average result is 13 or Cleric’s level +1. But Durkon now has Turn Resistance +4 so he’s effectively 19th level. So Hilgya would need to roll 22+ i.e. a natural 19 or 20. Make her more charismatic by giving her a CHA boosting item (likely +6 at her level) and an Inherent Bonus and the numbers fall quickly. She’d still need to roll well, of course, but rolling a 13 or better is achievable. Hmm… I’m going to pass this to the experts in the OotS forum. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=409) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=411)