# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 412
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8222 "2013-12-03T04:17:39Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > I have to imagine Xykon being significantly higher than level 21. He’s been around for over 100 years, probably half as human and half as lich. And those weren’t sit around and study 100 years. Those were “let’s see how much shit we can fuck up” 100 years. He’s had plenty of opportunities to level. Going on what’s in the prequel books, Xykon’s transformation to lich couldn’t have been much more than a year before the start of the plot. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8223 "2013-12-03T04:21:43Z")
As long as we’re talking Xykon’s level here, don’t forget that the Lich template adds +8 to your ECL. Are we assuming that he had reached Epic levels prior to lichdom? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8224 "2013-12-03T04:25:21Z")
Actually, it looks like level adjustment for Lich is +4. Demilich is +8. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8225 "2013-12-03T04:33:39Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > Going on what’s in the prequel books, Xykon’s transformation to lich couldn’t have been much more than a year before the start of the plot. It had to have been a minimum of 20 since that’s how long Right-Eye was in hiding before Redcloak showed up in Start of Darkness. And that’s assuming there’s no space in the narrative for other things to have happened in between, which there probably was. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8226 "2013-12-03T04:48:56Z")
Xykon became a lich in 1156. The comic strip continuity began in 1183 and it’s currently 1184. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8227 "2013-12-03T04:52:55Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Wait, what? I didn’t think they broke up. Last I saw they’re just in a long long distance cross-plane relationship while Celia is off at law school and Roy is chasing Xykon. > > No opinion on Elan being the story center, but you make very good points. Thanks! But wow, you’re totally right. I thought he and Celia decided to call it quits at the end of the last book. Re-reading [#669](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html), it’s not a farewell or parting-of-the-ways conversation at all, just a “I don’t understand or approve of what you do, but that’s okay” conversation. It seemed to me at the time like an amicable parting of the ways. (Actually maybe I was distracted because that strip annoyed me by the implied religious talk at the end.) Sorry! Well, I guess even the fact that they’re together-yet-apart doesn’t seem to matter much! I know with the weird timing of this strip it’s probably been fewer than two weeks (if that!) since they parted, but we haven’t seen or heard of her for, what, two or three years? Again, it just doesn’t seem to be a very significant relationship–they kinda just fell into it, really. They have sex and are attracted to one another, but there’s no real sense that they _belong_ together, or that this is a Love Story. It’s just… someone Roy has sex with sometimes. At least Celia seems to care since she shlepped all that way to rez Roy. But what does she love about him? What does he love about her? Celestia only knows. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8228 "2013-12-03T05:19:57Z")
> [@choie](#): > > (Actually maybe I was distracted because that strip annoyed me by the implied religious talk at the end.) Actually, I thought the bit at the end was fun satire. The joke is that mortals wouldn’t be as violent if they didn’t know for sure there was an afterlife. And we in the real world don’t know - for sure - that there is an afterlife, so we’re utterly non-violent, right? Bzzzt! Wrong. It’s a joke that’s been done before, but still fun. And no implied religion at all - the afterlife in OOTS is part of the rules of D&D. Therefore fictional. Perhaps just like ours. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8229 "2013-12-03T05:33:31Z")
> [@choie](#): > > (and as usual, was promptly ignored, but that’s okay, I’m used to babbling to an audience of myself!) Huh. FWIW, I didn’t agree with your initial remarks, but they registered and I occasionally allude to them in my mind when thinking of the strip. Which is sort of unusual: generally posters need to repeat their point a couple of times for it to sink in. Meta aside, > [@](#): > > … while Roy is the leader of the party and the original catalyst for the adventure, we’ve seen 933 strips now and of those, the majority of important character arcs and emotional moments have revolved around Elan. Roy has barely developed… > > Yes, the group screwed up without him when he was dead. All that means is that he’s an important leader. That doesn’t make him the _story hero_. A hero needs a journey, and this stopped being Roy’s journey a long time ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah: Roy is still the _protagonist_ and Elan is the _sidekick_. And for my taste Elan is way to much of a duffus for me to admire him. You’ve got the story arch stuff right though. But I think you and Tarq are making a similar error: you are assuming this is a typical story. But it’s not: it’s a story based upon a role playing game. That means that _every_ PC has the potential to be their own story, to have their own story arch. And because Burlew is a good DM (metaphorically) and he has experienced players (metaphorically) each PC does. You are correct that Roy has fairly minimal character development: I think in many ways he is a stand-in for _some_ of the author’s POV and commentary. He’s also the straight man in the story, but he was never sufficiently rigid to give him scope for expansive personal growth. He was always too smart to be lawful stupid and too ethical to be homicidally good. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8230 "2013-12-03T05:49:08Z")
> [@choie](#): > > It seemed to me at the time like an amicable parting of the ways. (Actually maybe I was distracted because that strip annoyed me by the implied religious talk at the end.) That would definitely be a justifiable reading. It just got preempted by the [illustrations a couple strips later](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html). ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8231 "2013-12-03T11:17:22Z")
> [@choie](#): > > I know with the weird timing of this strip it’s probably been fewer than two weeks (if that!) since they parted, but we haven’t seen or heard of her for, what, two or three years? Again, it just doesn’t seem to be a very significant relationship–they kinda just fell into it, really. They have sex and are attracted to one another, but there’s no real sense that they _belong_ together, or that this is a Love Story. It’s just… someone Roy has sex with sometimes. At least Celia seems to care since she shlepped all that way to rez Roy. But what does she love about him? What does he love about her? Celestia only knows. Whatever it is, [he seems pretty happy about it](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0313.html). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8232 "2013-12-03T16:38:41Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > That would definitely be a justifiable reading. It just got preempted by the [illustrations a couple strips later](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html). Also, in Girard’s [illusion](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0888.html), they are still a couple in the future. Granted it was an illusion but it was based on what Roy believed should happen. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8233 "2013-12-03T17:50:27Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Actually, I thought the bit at the end was fun satire. The joke is that mortals wouldn’t be as violent if they didn’t know for sure there was an afterlife. And we in the real world don’t know - for sure - that there is an afterlife, so we’re utterly non-violent, right? Bzzzt! Wrong. It’s a joke that’s been done before, but still fun. And no implied religion at all - the afterlife in OOTS is part of the rules of D&D. Therefore fictional. Perhaps just like ours. 😉 I think it’s also a meta joke on gamers speculating about how access to Raise Dead spells and the ability to physically visit the afterlife would change people’s conceptions of morality. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8234 "2013-12-04T01:51:07Z")
> [@choie](#): > > I’m with **Mr Shine**. As I’ve posted (and as usual, was promptly ignored, but that’s okay, I’m used to babbling to an audience of myself!), while Roy is the leader of the party and the original catalyst for the adventure, we’ve seen 933 strips now and of those, the majority of important character arcs and emotional moments have revolved around Elan. Roy has barely developed throughout the entire story, aside from learning not to be as snarky to his teammates, and realizing that he doesn’t need to keep arguing with his dad; big whoop. > > \< SNIP (not because it’s any less important than what isn’t being snipped, but just for space) \> > > If not, he’s doing a remarkably bad job at making his hero’s tale very gripping. And I don’t think Burlew is so inept a writer. > > (And I’m not saying all this because Elan is my favorite character, since he isn’t; Vaarsuvius is. But Elan is certainly second for all of the above reasons. What can I say, I like angst.) This is an awesome post. It might even be worthy of being included in an academic paper (I’d be a very poor judge of such things; I just know I liked it a lot). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8235 "2013-12-04T01:58:26Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > This is an awesome post. > > It might even be worthy of being included in an academic paper (I’d be a very poor judge of such things; I just know I liked it a lot). I have to disagree with squeegee’s post. Elan may be the most interesting character but that doesn’t make him the protagonist. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8236 "2013-12-04T10:43:25Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Whatever it is, [he seems pretty happy about it](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0313.html). It’s the slit skirt. Rowr. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8237 "2013-12-05T04:34:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I have to disagree with squeegee’s post. Elan may be the most interesting character but that doesn’t make him the protagonist. I think you meant **choie**? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8238 "2013-12-05T17:30:32Z")
No new update (sorry), but I haven’t been able to respond for a while and felt the need to defend Roy a bit. I think **choie** has forgotten some of Roy’s development. That’s easy to do since most of it happened more than five years ago. In the forest bandit quest Roy learned how leadership cuts both ways. With Miko, Roy came to understand that a Good alignment does not necessarily make you a good person. And more gradually, he has learned that alignment in general does not control the content of your character. He has also lost some of his arrogance and accepted that other team members can be just as right as he is. Roy of Dungeon Crawling Fools would not have accepted Durkon back. And his growth is not over. One of Roy’s last blinders is lack of notice of subtle change. Specifically what’s been going on with V and Belkar. At this point I am not sure if he is going to recognize what is happening to Belkar before or after he checks out. I am curious to see where that will take him as a character and how that will affect his feelings about Durkon and V. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8239 "2013-12-05T18:28:13Z")
Roy also has the most fully developed backstory of the entire party - Elan included. Despite the prominence of his family in the current plot, they don’t show up at all in his life until they’re encountered in the comic. Elan’s life story prior joining the Order is, “Had a mom who was basically okay.” Roy, on the other hand, has a fully fleshed out family dynamic, whose effects are clearly visible on his character at the beginning of the story, and which underlie much of his character growth as the story progresses. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8240 "2013-12-05T20:10:08Z")
Very true. Elan’s biggest tragedy that we know of from before the story begins is being raised by a single Mom. Roy has guilt over his younger brother’s death, his issues with Eugene, and his sister who is everything his father wanted Roy to be. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8241 "2013-12-05T23:31:39Z")
I don’t think that Elan is especially important; it’s just that _right now_ Tarquin and his relationship with Elan is a major factor in the story. Back during the Soul Splice storyline it was V that the comic mostly focused on; that didn’t make the comic as a whole about V. And I expect that pretty soon we are going to see a lot of Durkon-centric comics; that doesn’t mean the comic is about Durkon either. It’s an ensemble work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=411) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=413)