# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 414
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8262 "2013-12-07T16:53:25Z")
Great strip! “[Julio’s] upper body strength isn’t what it was when my dad used to fly this ship.” Haha! Brilliant! ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8263 "2013-12-07T17:22:51Z")
Laurin **has** to be getting low on points by now between all the portals, the dimension door, multiple disintegrates, reading Nale’s mind, levitating Tarquin’s whip, the paralyzing/stunning attack, dispelling Durkon’s protection and losing a couple levels to Durkon’s attack. On the other hand, V has to be getting low as well (while I’m not looking for every spell V cast since they left for the pyramid, but I’d assume V would have cast more offensive stuff recently during the army fight if the spells had been there. Anyway, what I’m saying is that this caster fight would have a lot more slapping than usual. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8264 "2013-12-07T17:50:14Z")
> [@](#): > > “[Julio’s] upper body strength isn’t what it was when my dad used to fly this ship.” Haha! Brilliant! Personally, I’m amazed that anyone on that ship has a father that wasn’t Julio, since that means that he missed sweeping some of the damsels in distress off their feet himself. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8265 "2013-12-07T18:11:43Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Tarquin is going down. His pride will be his downfall. If nothing else, Tarquin is rapidly slipping from affably evil to just regular evil. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8266 "2013-12-07T18:14:27Z")
Do we need another recurring set of villains? Because if they answer to that in ‘no’ (which I believe it is) then there’s room in the narrative for both Tarquin and Laurin to die here. That frees up Elan to move his story on to the climax against Xykon without distraction. Elan’s clearly reached the point that he knows T has to go, but he’s more comfortable with someone else doing it. And don’t count on V being all that low on spells. Assuming many were cast off-panel would be a restriction that the Giant doesn’t need to accept. And even if low on the high level spells, V has shown a real flair for using the non-massive spells to achieve good results. V may be using a 6th level spell to push Tarquin off the airship where a more destructive spell like disintegration (which, if T failed his save, might kill him outright 30-34d6 of damage is nothing for any character to sneer at). It’d be hilarious to see Tarquin banana-peeled by a first level grease spell right off the ship. Have we determined V’s level? 7th level spells but not 8th, right? And don’t forget, Haley only needs one arm to get some sneak attacks in. AND she has all those wands she took from Z. For my money (I’ll be proven wrong, no doubt), this is the end of Tarquin. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8267 "2013-12-07T18:24:38Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Do we need another recurring set of villains? > > Because if they answer to that in ‘no’ (which I believe it is) then there’s room in the narrative for both Tarquin and Laurin to die here. That frees up Elan to move his story on to the climax against Xykon without distraction. Elan’s clearly reached the point that he knows T has to go, but he’s more comfortable with someone else doing it. > > And don’t count on V being all that low on spells. Assuming many were cast off-panel would be a restriction that the Giant doesn’t need to accept. And even if low on the high level spells, V has shown a real flair for using the non-massive spells to achieve good results. V may be using a 6th level spell to push Tarquin off the airship where a more destructive spell like disintegration (which, if T failed his save, might kill him outright 30-34d6 of damage is nothing for any character to sneer at). It’d be hilarious to see Tarquin banana-peeled by a first level grease spell right off the ship. And unlike all the other characters, V was incapacitated for half or more of the encounters that have taken place in this very long day. Unless she’s been burning through them like crazy, he should have some left over. ---
**Author:** ![Garula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@Garula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garula)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8268 "2013-12-07T18:35:53Z")
Wow, I really thought we were heading directly into the denouement after last strip. but it looks like this fight is going to the bitter end. Tarquin is utterly relentless. I think Tarquin is going to meet his end soon. He’s become unhinged and reckless, and Burlew almost always awards victory the the cleverest combatants in the end (The big exception being Start of Darkness). He could certainly do some serious damage before he goes, though. Huh. Elan’s message to Julio foreshadowed that Julio would defy the expected story conventions. He expected he would be killed by an enemy of Elan to motivate him to avenge his death. If he died AFTER Tarquin, though, that would still defy convention… ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8269 "2013-12-07T18:38:21Z")
> [@Trepa\_Mayfield](#): > > And unlike all the other characters, V was incapacitated for half or more of the encounters that have taken place in this very long day. Unless she’s been burning through them like crazy, he should have some left over. Yeah, V usually keeps a good mix of utility spells, and has probably blown all the AOE and mass effect spells, but probably didn’t waste any single-target heavy blasting spells on 1-2 level soldiers. So other than what we saw against em on the ground, should still be available. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8270 "2013-12-07T18:39:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If nothing else, Tarquin is rapidly slipping from affably evil to just regular evil. I’d say it’s more that the affable veneer is peeling off. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8271 "2013-12-07T18:46:24Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > And don’t count on V being all that low on spells. Assuming many were cast off-panel would be a restriction that the Giant doesn’t need to accept. And even if low on the high level spells, V has shown a real flair for using the non-massive spells to achieve good results. V may be using a 6th level spell to push Tarquin off the airship where a more destructive spell like disintegration (which, if T failed his save, might kill him outright 30-34d6 of damage is nothing for any character to sneer at). It’d be hilarious to see Tarquin banana-peeled by a first level grease spell right off the ship. I think you’re right on the money with how Tarquin is going to die - thematically, if not by that specific spell. A few things to consider. Tarquin’s long term goal isn’t to “win,” it’s to be defeated in such a way that he’s remembered as one of history’s greatest villains. To truly defeat him, he has to die in such a way that he’s either erased from history (not in a Dr. Who way, just that he’s forgotten) - or he’s remembered as a laughingstock. And right now, he’s on a flying boat, above a giant desert, in a story arc that’s been heavily laden with Star Wars references. [And doesn’t Tarquin’s helmet](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0723.html) look [just a little bit familiar?](http://www.empireonline.com/images/features/100greatestcharacters/photos/79.jpg) Tarquin slipping on a grease spell cast by a tertiary (to his plot arc) character that causes him to fall into the mouth of a giant desert monster that has never been remotely hinted at in the narrative of the story, ideally followed by some sort of fart joke? I can’t think of a more perfect way to utterly defeat Tarquin. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8272 "2013-12-07T20:42:31Z")
I love the idea of Tarquin being killed by a grease spell, but it can’t be Vaarsuvius who does it-- E banned Conjuration. Could be Haley with one of those wands she looted, though. This would at least make Tarquin’s killer be someone connected with Elan, but on the other hand, getting killed by a spell from a non-caster is more humiliating than getting killed by a high-level wizard. Oh, and I don’t think Laurin needs to die. Once Tarquin’s out of the fight, she is too-- She doesn’t have a personal stake here. And we do still need to learn what her favor is. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8273 "2013-12-07T20:47:30Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Tarquin slipping on a grease spell cast by a tertiary (to his plot arc) character that causes him to fall into the mouth of a giant desert monster that has never been remotely hinted at in the narrative of the story, ideally followed by some sort of fart joke? I can’t think of a more perfect way to utterly defeat Tarquin. That’d be awesome. Too bad Belkar walked away with his pets, or V could restore the allosaur to full size, and T gets eaten by it. The dinosaur then farts. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8274 "2013-12-07T20:52:33Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Oh, and I don’t think Laurin needs to die. Once Tarquin’s out of the fight, she is too-- She doesn’t have a personal stake here. And we do still need to learn what her favor is. I don’t think that we do. The “favor” thing is a narrative device to demonstrate how much Tarquin has over-extended himself. I don’t think its a plot thread that needs resolving. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8275 "2013-12-07T21:15:49Z")
Well, I have to agree with Tarquin, that _is_ how things are done - at least in Hollywood. Enemies of ensembles are defeated by ensembles but enemies of individuals within ensembles tend to follow the pattern that he’s laying out. Straightforward story logic. Of course, since all of the preceding is what our genre savvy villain _wants_, none of it applies. D’oh! Rich has established the Order’s predominant strategy of hightailing it in the face of high powered enemies, so 6 or 7 or 8+ on 2 doesn’t seem like bullying. (Also for more direct reasons.) **Geekfest** Tarquin’s ability to understand genre on one level combined with his inability to perceive the deeper structure, makes me think his wisdom, while above average, may not be all that hot. In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me if Elan’s wisdom is higher (which implies I guess that Nale’s intelligence was higher than T’s wisdom). Here’s a question. I don’t read novels too much. I’ve claimed that Oots parodies/satirizes Hollywood story conventions. Do these conventions apply to US novels as well? Or are the tropes different in important ways? Feel free to answer this question for a sub-class of novels: I kept the question open-ended to provide flexibility. For manga/anime, I’ll note that there’s an underlying assumption that men of strong character can work for bad empires. Samurai! And furthermore, those opposing the main characters don’t necessarily have transparent personality defects such as a thirst for revenge, thirst for blood or a sociopathic absence of concern for consequence. At least in the better works. But yeah, ensemble pieces tend to orient themselves around a single character, more so than with Oots. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8276 "2013-12-07T21:18:57Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > That’d be awesome. > > Too bad Belkar walked away with his pets, or V could restore the allosaur to full size, and T gets eaten by it. The dinosaur then farts. Restoring the allosaur to full size would result in flying shipwreck. > [@Miller](#): > > The “favor” thing is a narrative device to demonstrate how much Tarquin has over-extended himself. I don’t think its a plot thread that needs resolving. But it was suppose to be cleared _today_, which makes it look a lot like a Chekhov device. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8277 "2013-12-07T21:55:51Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > But it was suppose to be cleared _today_, which makes it look a lot like a Chekhov device. Good point, I’d forgotten that detail. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8278 "2013-12-07T22:10:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Oh, and I don’t think Laurin needs to die. Once Tarquin’s out of the fight, she is too-- She doesn’t have a personal stake here. And we do still need to learn what her favor is. Not necessarily. While killing the Order right now is just Tarquin’s “personal business” if the Order kills Tarquin, Laurin and the other four surviving members of the group might then decide that’s sufficient cause for them to seek revenge. The Order could just end up exchanging one high-level antagonist for four high-level antagonists (two of whom they’ve never even met). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8279 "2013-12-07T22:57:09Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Oh, and I don’t think Laurin needs to die. Once Tarquin’s out of the fight, she is too-- She doesn’t have a personal stake here. And we do still need to learn what her favor is. Y’know, little more needs to be said if you read it as a _sexual_ favor. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8280 "2013-12-07T23:13:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Y’know, little more needs to be said if you read it as a sexual favor. It won’t be. The Giant has stated on his board that he’s deliberately made a point of _not_ sexualizing Laurin. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8281 "2013-12-07T23:13:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Not necessarily. While killing the Order right now is just Tarquin’s “personal business” if the Order kills Tarquin, Laurin and the other four surviving members of the group might then decide that’s sufficient cause for them to seek revenge. The Order could just end up exchanging one high-level antagonist for four high-level antagonists (two of whom they’ve never even met). That would be shit. What needs to happen is for Tarquin to die, the other four to agree that Tarquin died because of his stupid crusade, and then _not_ leap face-first into that same stupid crusade. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=413) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=415)