# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 418
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8342 "2013-12-10T15:07:21Z")
I don’t have anything against Thog but I don’t have anything especially for him either. He’s a one-trick pony and hard to get excited about. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8343 "2013-12-10T15:15:38Z")
He also brutally murdered dozens, if not hundreds of innocent people in Cliffport. Don’t forget that. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8344 "2013-12-10T16:52:59Z")
As the title says: [Stupid Isn’t Always Cute.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html) ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8345 "2013-12-10T20:10:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I don’t. He’s evil. He’s no MiTD. Agreed, but he gives rise to the question: is he too stupid to know he’s doing wrong? He’s the classic Int 3 Wis 3 character. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8346 "2013-12-10T20:19:28Z")
I think I can say that I have a soft spot for the person that Thog might have been. He’d probably be very different if it had been Elan who took him under his wing, rather than Nale. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8347 "2013-12-10T20:52:28Z")
It does rather raise the question of whether Thog will attach himself to Elan if he gets free, given that Elan and Thog bonded during their escape from Cliffport. Thog is really too stupid to do his own thing for long. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8348 "2013-12-10T21:13:01Z")
> [@shantih](#): > > It does rather raise the question of whether Thog will attach himself to Elan if he gets free, given that Elan and Thog bonded during their escape from Cliffport. Thog is really too stupid to do his own thing for long. Is Thog even alive? The [last time](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html) we saw him we was being buried under a pile of rubble. That’s usually a lethal event. I think Burlew may have decided to kill off both Thog and Nale but wanted to keep Thog’s fate at least theoretically [in doubt](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0813.html) so he could surprise readers when he killed off Nale. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8349 "2013-12-10T21:23:54Z")
Noticed something interesting re-reading old strips. Back in [817](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0817.html), Tarquin told Roy that _“if any lasting harm comes to my son while he is under your protection, I will hold you - and your family members - personally responsible.”_ So if Tarquin succeeds in cutting off Elan’s hand as he’s threatened to do, will he then feel compelled by his own twisted logic to go after Roy’s sister Julia? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8350 "2013-12-10T21:32:06Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > He also brutally murdered dozens, if not hundreds of innocent people in Cliffport. Don’t forget that. Or as Tarquin [said](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html): [QUOTE=Tarquin] “It’s weird, no matter how many people he kills, the audience still thinks he’s lovable.” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8351 "2013-12-10T21:58:39Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Agreed, but he gives rise to the question: is he too stupid to know he’s doing wrong? He’s the classic Int 3 Wis 3 character. Int 3 Wis 3 Evil is still Evil. I don’t like Thog at all, and I don’t think The Giant really wants me to, either. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8352 "2013-12-10T23:01:13Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Agreed, but he gives rise to the question: is he too stupid to know he’s doing wrong? He’s the classic Int 3 Wis 3 character. While extremely low Int does eventually shift you out of “Evil” to “Neutral”, it’s at the same point where you are no longer a person but an animal. If he’s too stupid to know he’s doing wrong, it just means you put him down like a rabid dog instead of executing him like a man. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8353 "2013-12-11T01:24:40Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Agreed, but he gives rise to the question: is he too stupid to know he’s doing wrong? He’s the classic Int 3 Wis 3 character. When he first showed up, back at Durokon’s Gate, he was smart enough to conceal the fact that he’d murdered the guardian from Roy, so it would appear he understands the difference between right and wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8354 "2013-12-11T02:47:27Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > When he first showed up, back at Durokon’s Gate, he was smart enough to conceal the fact that he’d murdered the guardian from Roy, so it would appear he understands the difference between right and wrong. I was going to suggest that he _was_ correct when he said “Thog alone” but [he obviously knows/enjoys](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html) what he had done. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8355 "2013-12-11T03:51:53Z")
He was correct, but he’s also not answering Roy’s question. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8356 "2013-12-11T05:50:44Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I think I can say that I have a soft spot for the person that Thog might have been. He’d probably be very different if it had been Elan who took him under his wing, rather than Nale. Thog does seem rather malleable and open to influence. This touches on my good/evil discussion upthread. You can certainly create a world where most orcs commit evil because of what they are. I mean there’s no logical problem with this “Negative energy” story. But I find that unrealistic or at least uninteresting insofar as it’s a caricature at best of the real world, or possibly a toxic distortion. Still, I flipped through my Monster Manual a couple of weeks ago and realized that most Monsters can be interpreted as vermin, ones that you clear the dungeon or landscape of before moving in. It’s sort of hard to negotiate with solitary creatures like tigers or beholders. Even given that the latter is intelligent. Mind flayers fall in between since they are _social_ creatures, albeit accursed ones. I opine that all intelligent social creatures possess a sort of morality (as a group) _though quite possibly a really, really twisted one_. I’ve only participated in one D&D game though. Furthermore it was years ago and I wasn’t very good at it (I understood it better after the internet arrived). So this discussion is directed more at Hollywood conventions, than at DMs. I don’t have a sense of what works and doesn’t in an RPG. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8357 "2013-12-11T06:08:41Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Thog does seem rather malleable and open to influence. This touches on my good/evil discussion upthread. You can certainly create a world where most orcs commit evil because of what they are. I mean there’s no logical problem with this “Negative energy” story. But I find that unrealistic or at least uninteresting insofar as it’s a caricature at best of the real world, or possibly a toxic distortion. The negative energy thing only applies to the undead. Orcs are not negative energy creatures, and are harmed by exposure to it, just as humans are. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8358 "2013-12-11T07:52:32Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Still, I flipped through my Monster Manual a couple of weeks ago and realized that most Monsters can be interpreted as vermin, ones that you clear the dungeon or landscape of before moving in. It’s sort of hard to negotiate with solitary creatures like tigers or beholders. Even given that the latter is intelligent. Mind flayers fall in between since they are _social_ creatures, albeit accursed ones. I opine that all intelligent social creatures possess a sort of morality (as a group) _though quite possibly a really, really twisted one_. Beholders are also somewhat social - they have speech, culture (albeit ultra-xenophobic culture particularly when it comes to Beholders that look different), architecture, religion and everything. And they understand social concepts enough to take advantage of them and strive to manipulate their way into becoming head (ah !) honchos wherever they may roam. Float, whatever. Hell, you could even say each Beholder is a society unto itself, since they’re all schyzophrenic :). Sort of. A Beholder’s mind is always split into two distinct personnalities and typically neither half trusts the other which tends to make them quite paranoid and, well, _insane_. But they take it in stride. So it’s still hard to negociate with them, granted :p. But my point is, they fall squarely into the “really really twisted and aberrant morality” group. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8359 "2013-12-12T04:05:24Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > But they take it in stride. Perhaps you would like to rephrase that? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8361 "2013-12-17T21:43:48Z")
If not everyone saw this, according to Berlew’s twitter feed his Mac ate itself, taking his archives of 931-934 with it and whatever was done on 935. He says he’ll “start fresh on 935 tomorrow” after he backs up and re-rebacks up all his data. He’ll have to recreate the lost strips from lo-res versions for his book efforts. So it looks like we still have a bit of a wait for the next OOTS strip. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8362 "2013-12-19T19:07:01Z")
probably a stupid question, but aren’t 931 - 934 retrievable from giantitp? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=417) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=419)