# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 438
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8743 "2014-02-21T02:03:25Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But Burlew has stuck pretty closely with the 3.5 Edition D&D rules. When he’s made up new stuff outside of those rules (like the Dashing Swordsman prestige class) he’s pointed out that he was doing so. This. There’s no indication in any of the D&D material I’ve read that this is how vampirism works. For that matter, is this the way it is with all sentient undead? You wouldn’t assume that Xykon’s soul is trapped inside some other entity. Nothing in the materials ever gave hint that vampiric undead were somehow unique from other sentient undead in this regard. So it’s strange and maybe the answer is “that’s just how it works” but in that case it seems like an unusual departure from the rules. Or, Durkon is a unique case for some reason (Hel had been waiting for a powerful dwarf PC to die so she could implant a spirit in him, for example) which would be a reason for wondering what’s up. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8744 "2014-02-21T02:10:08Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Kinda weird that Burlew would choose to do it this way, since in the Q&A session he said thralls are not interesting characters to write. But Durkula is a thrall, only he’s the slave of a god instead of a white lizard. “Service is my sole purpose” sounds like a pretty thrally thing to say to me at least. It kind of reminds me more of the proxy/power relationship from the old Planescape setting rules. An independent but completely loyal agent of a god, rather than a thrall. Proxies have a lot of independence, because you pretty much have to already agree 100% with a power’s goals to be chosen as one by that power. By virtue of that independence and CHOSEN loyalty, they’re much more valuable and creative than a thrall would be because their conscious personality isn’t overridden by their master/mistress. ETA: And yes, I’m aware that the dialogue seems to contraindicate the entity in Durkula being a proxy. I’m just saying that it REMINDS me of the proxy role. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8745 "2014-02-21T02:13:24Z")
So what do you think of those who are disappointed in the twist because they were looking forward to Durkon character development vis a vis being a LG character who’s been vampirized? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8746 "2014-02-21T02:15:48Z")
That they should write their own OOTS fanfic instead of expecting Burlew to conform to their expectations of where the story was going? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8747 "2014-02-21T02:25:32Z")
It’s not quite that; the feeling is that their expectation advances character development for someone who hasn’t gotten a lot of it compared to the other members of the Order while the “reality” does not. I think many are Durkon fans who feel that he’s gotten short shrift, and that this just continues that trend. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8748 "2014-02-21T02:30:01Z")
I honestly think this IS going to advance Durkon’s character arc. He’s always been a stolid, stable, kind of boring character (other than the momentary fidelity lapse with Hilga). Now he’s having quite a bit of personal trauma and it’ll be interesting to see how he changes from it. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8749 "2014-02-21T02:52:50Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > Given Durkon’s soul’s expression, it appears that it is a terribly painful experience (mentally and emotionally, at the very least, if not actually physically [or whatever the equivalent of physical pain is for a soul]). He just looks really angry to me. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8750 "2014-02-21T03:05:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Jophiel** : > > This. There’s no indication in any of the D&D material I’ve read that this is how vampirism works. And there’s also no indication in any D&D material that this is not how vampirism works. The rules are annoyingly silent on the matter, which leaves room for an author to come up with his own internally-consistent mechanics. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8751 "2014-02-21T04:04:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And there’s also no indication in any D&D material that this is not how vampirism works. Also known as the Air Bud rule. “Hey, it doesn’t say in the rules that a dog can’t play basketball so it must be legal!” 😃 Burlew has every right to build whatever world he wants. When he deviates from the source material, people also have the right to wonder about it. Every other advanced sentient undead (liches, death knights, revenants, what-have-you) I can think of is still considered to be controlled by the spirit of its living owner (even if that spirit is now corrupted by the process). For vampires to have some completely separate soul jar style effect is fine if that’s what Burlew wants but it’s not consistent with the broader general view of sentient undead. ---
**Author:** ![Garula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@Garula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garula)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8752 "2014-02-21T10:37:37Z")
Aren’t those other sentient undead generally created from volunteers, though? Xykon was certainly willing to go through with the process. I expect his soul is pretty much the same as when he was alive, just now it commands a shiny new skeletal body. It seems pretty reasonable that creating a sentient undead from an unwilling host could be a very different process. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8753 "2014-02-21T11:06:52Z")
Is it possible that Hel was watching at the moment of Malack’s demise, and simply made use of a once-in-a-cycle-of-the-Universe opportunity to seize a newly-masterless vampiric thrall? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8754 "2014-02-21T12:40:45Z")
> [@Garula](#): > > Aren’t those other sentient undead generally created from volunteers, though? Xykon was certainly willing to go through with the process. I expect his soul is pretty much the same as when he was alive, just now it commands a shiny new skeletal body. It seems pretty reasonable that creating a sentient undead from an unwilling host could be a very different process. That’s true - skeletons and zombies certainly don’t retain their souls. It seems to me that the term “undead” covers two very different clades, so to speak: dead bodies returned to a semblance of life, and dead souls that refuse to depart the mortal realm. The former includes zombies and vampires; the second, specters and ghosts. Liches, IMHO, belong to the second group - as we’ve seen, a lich’s body is more or less disposable. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8755 "2014-02-21T13:03:18Z")
Some undead go into it willingly. Some are created against their will or at least without their consent; death knights, spectres and huecuva for example. I’m talking only of the ones you could have a conversation with (in theory) and not mindless ones like skeletons or animalistic ones like ghouls and wights. Anyway, my greater point is just that it seems appropriate to wonder if Durkon’s situation is somehow unique, especially with the direct intervention of Hel. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8756 "2014-02-21T14:29:05Z")
We already know it’s.unique, inasmuch as Durkula is Hel’s first priest EVAR. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8757 "2014-02-21T14:33:53Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > We already know it’s.unique, inasmuch as Durkula is Hel’s first priest EVAR. How do we know that? (First, that is.) ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8758 "2014-02-21T14:41:08Z")
Sorry if this has been discussed: Email, dated 15 Feb: > [@kickstarter](#): > > On Wednesday night, law enforcement officials contacted Kickstarter and alerted us that hackers had sought and gained unauthorized access to some of our customers’ data.\ ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8759 "2014-02-21T14:51:28Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > How do we know that? (First, that is.) [Malack: Does not your own pantheon have a goddess of Death? Hel, I think? Durkon: Well, sorta, but nobody worships 'er, much less serves as 'er priest!]([737 Comparative Mythology - Giant in the Playground Games](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html)) ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8760 "2014-02-21T15:24:19Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > [Malack: Does not your own pantheon have a goddess of Death? Hel, I think? > > Durkon: Well, sorta, but nobody worships 'er, much less serves as 'er priest!]([737 Comparative Mythology - Giant in the Playground Games](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html)) :eek: How can you be a god without worshipers? (Thanks for the reply!) ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8761 "2014-02-21T15:26:46Z")
Well, the gods created the Stickworld so they can apparently exist pre-followers. Really, they created a world, got it messed up by the Snarl, dismantled it and then created a new world. So at least twice they’ve all been with zero followers. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8762 "2014-02-21T15:31:31Z")
“Nobody” in that statement might be hyperbole: There probably are a few very rare scattered followers of Hel. However, it’s probably reasonable to assume that none of them are even remotely close to being 16th-level clerics (heck, 16th-level clerics of any deity are extremely rare), so the vampirized Durkon being promoted straight to High Priest is still quite reasonable. And saying that “Vampires should work the same way as all other intelligent undead” doesn’t help, since the rules don’t say anything about how those work, either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=437) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=439)