# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 69
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1361 "2010-11-24T15:58:31Z")
So. Many. Puns. And Dad wins by being a tricky bastard. I’m in awe. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1362 "2010-11-24T16:32:25Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > Or the one before that when Elan mistakenly corrects “premature” to “immature” and the sound effect is “Whoosh!” > > And I wonder: > > 1. If Elan was sweating over the effort of fighting or trying to beat his dad’s wordplay. > > 2. If Elan’s levels of Dashing Swordsman will help him. 1. Both, I think. 2. The punning is the active factor of Dashing Swordsman that gives him competence in combat (AIUI), so that ship has sailed. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1363 "2010-11-24T17:23:27Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > In the games I’ve played in, LG paladins will accept slavery, assuming that the slavery system is set up to be reasonably “fair”, that is, convicts, captured enemies, and debtors can become slaves, but children can’t be born into slavery. Also, slaves usually have some basic rights. Something like the slavery system in the Old South (US) wouldn’t be seen as fair, but that system was pretty extreme. A paladin wouldn’t try to help slaves who were lawfully slaves escape, but might try to get the laws changed. > > Remember, up until about a century and a half ago, many people felt that slavery was a necessary part of society. Slavery still exists today in some areas. > > Many gamers try to force today’s ideas about what’s right and wrong into the fantasy setting of the games. I’ve played in settings that were quite sexist, and I’m a feminist. The DM might have reasons for having the setting being pro-slavery, or sexist, or racist. Most fantasy worlds and games are EXTREMELY racist, but not in a real life sort of way…that is, dark elves and orcs and goblins are always evil, while other races are good or neutral. This is part of the reason that R. A. Salvatore’s books about the drow ranger were so popular…drow are Evil, and here’s a sympathetic main character fighting to be Good (and also fighting against the extreme misandry of the drow society). > > On the one hand, as a gamer, it’s a hell of a lot easier for me to play in a world where orcs are Evil. If my character is Good, then if s/he sees an orc, the first thing that runs through his/her mind is “Target practice! And Glory (XP)!” Now, I will choose to attack or not based on my perceived odds, but I don’t have to worry about how my character is going to interact with those orcs. S/he will always be a foe of orcs. If orcs can be neutral or evil, though, a Good character is usually obliged to find out which alignment any particular orc is, before starting a fight. And a Lawful character usually considers ambushes/sneak attacks to be Unlawful, while a Chaotic character just regards such approaches as evening the odds or good tactics. > > Lawful characters generally don’t have “personal moral codes”, they know what is Lawful, and that’s what they’ll do. Chaotic characters might think that something is Lawful But Wrong. For instance, Haley is doing her best to free slaves and prisoners, even though they were lawfully incarcerated or enslaved. But then, thieves are very, very rarely Lawful. The D&D alignment system is supposed to be a guideline, nothing more, and it’s certainly not supposed to indicate that there are only nine possible moral types in the entire world. Two perfectly Lawful Good characters can disagree with each other completely on matters of ethcs and morality. Look at the \*Discworld \*novels, for instance - both Vimes and Carrot are Lawful Good, and yet their outlooks on life are almost completely alien to each other. Or, for that matter, look at Miko, Hinjo and Roy. In other words, don’t ask “what would a LG character do”. Ask, “what would this specific LG character do”. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1364 "2010-11-24T17:29:00Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > 1. Both, I think. > > 2. The punning is the active factor of Dashing Swordsman that gives him competence in combat (AIUI), so that ship has sailed. Shouldn’t it be “that quip has sailed?” I’m not sure how I feel about Tarquin prefering style over substance. That is, he approves of Elan because of his sense of the dramatic without caring whether their alignments (morals) are the same. I don’t approve of it, but part of me kind of likes it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1365 "2010-11-24T17:31:32Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > On the one hand, as a gamer, it’s a hell of a lot easier for me to play in a world where orcs are Evil. If my character is Good, then if s/he sees an orc, the first thing that runs through his/her mind is “Target practice! And Glory (XP)!” Now, I will choose to attack or not based on my perceived odds, but I don’t have to worry about how my character is going to interact with those orcs. S/he will always be a foe of orcs. If orcs can be neutral or evil, though, a Good character is usually obliged to find out which alignment any particular orc is, before starting a fight. And a Lawful character usually considers ambushes/sneak attacks to be Unlawful, while a Chaotic character just regards such approaches as evening the odds or good tactics. Burlew has mocked this sort of thing in his strip. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1366 "2010-11-24T17:36:55Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Interesting how the rules they were fighting under make questioning entymology a viable tactic. A portmanteau word - how insects get their names? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1367 "2010-11-24T18:45:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Or, for that matter, look at Miko, Hinjo and Roy. Or, for that matter, Redcloak, Tsukiko, and Kubota. All three Lawful Evil, but that’s about the only thing they have in common. > [@](#): > > A portmanteau word - how insects get their names? No, that would be bugymology. Entymology obviously refers to the derivation of words that take a few weeks to say in their entirety for concepts that we animal races manage to use words like “hill” for. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1368 "2010-11-25T01:48:12Z")
> [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](#): > > Is that how lawful characters work? No, you’re right. A lawful character is more inclined to follow an existing plan or code, while a chaotic character is more inclined to make things up on the spot. It doesn’t say whether your code is necessarily the same as everyone else’s. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1369 "2010-11-25T05:45:43Z")
But a lawful character is more prone to following societal expectations or “the way it’s done”. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1370 "2010-11-25T07:21:14Z")
don’t forget, Part of the point of the series is having fun with the conventions of D&D. he is trying to make it ridiculous. Belkar is chaotic Evil(fully within the rules of the game) but is a hero. But Miko is lawful good(but a screaming bitch) and is an antagonist. Ultimately D&D is a poorly thought out framework in which to tell a good story(which is why I always ended up back in Palladium ), unless you screw the rules into what you want as a narrator(GM). Which is a major theme of the comic. The whole point of the story is that the rules of the story make no sense, so it’s a story in a meta-story wrapped in a satire. any damn thing he wants to write makes sense perfectly because the world it’s in makes no logical sense. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1371 "2010-11-25T14:00:59Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > 1. The punning is the active factor of Dashing Swordsman that gives him competence in combat (AIUI), so that ship has sailed. You don’t understand… they _both_ have Dashing Swordsman. I think Tarquin’s a bard, too. Probably exactly the same stats as Elan, to follow the trope. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1372 "2010-11-25T14:37:27Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > You don’t understand… they _both_ have Dashing Swordsman. I think Tarquin’s a bard, too. Probably exactly the same stats as Elan, to follow the trope. Then why the crack about you obviously have no fighting skills, you’re a bard? I would be very surpirsed were Tarquin a primary bard. He is mosty likely a fighter. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1373 "2010-11-25T15:52:43Z")
Tarquin has been seen wearing heavy armor. I’m fairly sure he’s not a bard. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1374 "2010-11-25T17:31:01Z")
Bards do make excellent warlords. Inspiring songs on a unit of level 5 or less troops enhances them significantly. Perhaps he’s a fighter. But there’s no question they both have Dashing Swordsman. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1375 "2010-11-25T18:25:10Z")
Tarquin was the leader of his party. When, in the history of D&D, has a bard ever led a party? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1376 "2010-11-25T18:47:37Z")
> [@](#): > > You don’t understand… they _both_ have Dashing Swordsman. I think Tarquin’s a bard, too. Probably exactly the same stats as Elan, to follow the trope. He can’t be a bard for the same reason Nale can’t: Bards aren’t allowed to be lawful. Besides, he’s the one who told Nale that bards were weak in the first place. I think we are supposed to infer, though, that he has DS levels: His fighting effectiveness is clearly improved by quips, just as Elan’s is. And a bard as party leader (or at least, party face, but it’s rare for a group of players to be willing to accept one as leader amongst themselves) is actually pretty common. If you’ve got all that Charisma, you might as well use it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1377 "2010-11-25T22:12:11Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > In the games I’ve played in, LG paladins will accept slavery, assuming that the slavery system is set up to be reasonably “fair”, that is, convicts, captured enemies, and debtors can become slaves, but children can’t be born into slavery. Also, slaves usually have some basic rights. Something like the slavery system in the Old South (US) wouldn’t be seen as fair, but that system was pretty extreme. A paladin wouldn’t try to help slaves who were lawfully slaves escape, but might try to get the laws changed. I’ve always figured that a LG paladin would be inclined to start and lead slave rebellions. Chop up the slavers, free and arm the slaves, and organize them into an army with the goal of creating a new, more just order. Teach them to be an army, with lots of speeches about the value of discipline and organization.\* As opposed to Haley’s CG (or at least Chaotic) approach, which tends towards “Go, you’re free!” Someone who tolerates slavery because it is legal would be rated Lawful Neutral by my standards; the Law is the Law and that’s an end to it. Lawful _Good_ would be as concerned about the results of following law as they are in the law itself. - I’m probably influenced by Elizabeth Moon’s [Paksenarrion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Deed_of_Paksenarrion)/Gird books here. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1378 "2010-11-26T01:58:10Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Someone who tolerates slavery because it is legal would be rated Lawful Neutral by my standards; the Law is the Law and that’s an end to it. Lawful _Good_ would be as concerned about the results of following law as they are in the law itself. She didn’t say they tolerate slavery because it’s legal, she said they tolerate slavery _if_ you can only get there by wronging innocent people. Leading a slave rebellion in that situation would be no different than going to a modern prison, murdering the guards and freeing the criminals inside - a Lawful Evil act. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1379 "2010-11-26T02:46:11Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > She didn’t say they tolerate slavery because it’s legal, she said they tolerate slavery _if_ you can only get there by wronging innocent people. Leading a slave rebellion in that situation would be no different than going to a modern prison, murdering the guards and freeing the criminals inside - a Lawful Evil act. Not if the prisoners are being systemically tortured. A paladin who stands by and does nothing while, say, some slave woman is raped again and again strains the definition of “good” to the breaking point. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1380 "2010-11-26T05:39:00Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > She didn’t say they tolerate slavery because it’s legal, she said they tolerate slavery _if_ you can only get there by wronging innocent people. Leading a slave rebellion in that situation would be no different than going to a modern prison, murdering the guards and freeing the criminals inside - a Lawful Evil act. There’s nothing lawful about your scenario. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=68) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=70)