# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 70
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1381 "2010-11-26T05:56:25Z")
While a LG might go all Spartacus and lead a slave uprising, such a character would probably prefer (if possible) to work through channels, encouraging owners to manumit their slaves, purchasing slaves’ freedom, petitioning the government to prohibit slavery, and so on. Of course, at least some of those aren’t an option, here. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1382 "2010-11-26T06:04:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > While a LG might go all Spartacus and lead a slave uprising, such a character would probably prefer (if possible) to work through channels, encouraging owners to manumit their slaves, purchasing slaves’ freedom, petitioning the government to prohibit slavery, and so on. True. Especially if they didn’t think they had the power to pull off such a revolution successfully. What I’m mainly trying to point out here is that to be Lawful _Good_, you have to be Good as well as Lawful. I’ve noticed than in conversations about paladins and such that people often presume that they are going to be overwhelmingly lawful and not really good at all. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1383 "2010-11-26T06:06:18Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > True. Especially if they didn’t think they had the power to pull off such a revolution successfully. > > What I’m mainly trying to point out here is that to be Lawful _Good_, you have to be Good as well as Lawful. I’ve noticed than in conversations about paladins and such that people often presume that they are going to be overwhelmingly lawful and not really good at all. That would make them more like Lawful Neutral. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1384 "2010-11-26T06:11:23Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > That would make them more like Lawful Neutral. Yes, and that’s how people sometimes try to portray paladins (when they aren’t doing the Miko Miyazaki routine). ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1385 "2010-11-26T06:12:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Not if the prisoners are being systemically tortured. > > A paladin who stands by and does nothing while, say, some slave woman is raped again and again strains the definition of “good” to the breaking point. Good thing neither of these has anything to do with the situation **Lynn** described, isn’t it? > [@Knorf](#): > > There’s nothing lawful about your scenario. There is if the action is motivated by an unyielding belief in their own moral framework. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1386 "2010-11-26T08:42:02Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Good thing neither of these has anything to do with the situation **Lynn** described, isn’t it? Of course it does. What exactly do you think happens to enslaved women? ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1387 "2010-11-26T09:31:15Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > She didn’t say they tolerate slavery because it’s legal, she said they tolerate slavery _if_ you can only get there by wronging innocent people. Leading a slave rebellion in that situation would be no different than going to a modern prison, murdering the guards and freeing the criminals inside - a Lawful Evil act. What I meant was, they’ll tolerate slavery if there’s a lawful way of ensuring that no innocents are wronged. For instance, captured enemy soldiers were usually made into slaves, if they weren’t killed outright. A paladin might consider this to be both Lawful and Good. On the other hand, raiding another country for slaves and other goods might be Lawful (depending on the society), but it’s certainly not Good, and innocents are harmed. > [@Knorf](#): > > There’s nothing lawful about your scenario. In fact, that scenario is pretty much the definition of Chaotic…doing what you think is right, despite what the law of the land is. > [@Chronos](#): > > While a LG might go all Spartacus and lead a slave uprising, such a character would probably prefer (if possible) to work through channels, encouraging owners to manumit their slaves, purchasing slaves’ freedom, petitioning the government to prohibit slavery, and so on. Of course, at least some of those aren’t an option, here. This, precisely, is how I think that a paladin would go about it. A paladin would use his/her awesome charisma to sway people’s opinions about slavery. Paladins aren’t just LG fighters, they are the champions of their gods, and the leaders of people. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course it does. What exactly do you think happens to enslaved women? In some societies, raping or beating a slave for jollies was considered to be an assault. Well, beating a slave was allowed under the same circumstances as beating a free person. Americans tend to think that the American model of slavery in the Bad Old Days was the only system of slavery, when it wasn’t. In some cases, slaves had certain rights. We tend to look at issues through modern eyes, and modern sensibilities. I’m as anti-rape as the next person, and I’ve scorned and mocked a great many players (mostly teenage males) who thought that rape was a joke, and that it was OK to rape (mostly female NPCs), because “rape doesn’t really hurt them”, but slavery was a part of society, and while moderns might be disgusted with it, that doesn’t mean that a D&D society must be completely PC. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1388 "2010-11-26T16:17:47Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > What I meant was, they’ll tolerate slavery if there’s a lawful way of ensuring that no innocents are wronged. For instance, captured enemy soldiers were usually made into slaves, if they weren’t killed outright. A paladin might consider this to be both Lawful and Good. On the other hand, raiding another country for slaves and other goods might be Lawful (depending on the society), but it’s certainly not Good, and innocents are harmed. Wasn’t there something unequivocally stating in one of the Players Handbooks (maybe first or second edition) that slavery is always evil and that a Paladin can never approve of it? It’s right up there with poison, killing prisoners, and using a bow. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1389 "2010-11-26T16:54:57Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > That would make them more like Lawful Neutral. That has of course happened throughout both real history and innumerable fictional histories-lawful organization starts off with the best of intentions and ideals, but soon (usually after all the “wise founders” die off) the laws/bureaucracy become self-sustaining, with their original _raison de etre_ forgotten. Off the top of my head, Farscape’s Peacekeepers are the first example I can think of. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1390 "2010-11-26T17:22:07Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Tarquin was the leader of his party. When, in the history of D&D, has a bard ever led a party? The Middle-Earth D&D campaign started by **What Exit?** in The Game Room and still current elsewhere appointed the elven bard Gil-Gandel as leader pretty early on. There’s no reason why a lore-wise, charismatic inspirational character shouldn’t take the lead - the heavy hitters, mundane and magical alike, have better things to occupy their time with. It’s just that Elan seems to have been the kind of character for whom everything is a dump stat. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1391 "2010-11-26T20:24:33Z")
Quoth **Der Trihs** : > [@](#): > > What I’m mainly trying to point out here is that to be Lawful Good, you have to be Good as well as Lawful. I’ve noticed than in conversations about paladins and such that people often presume that they are going to be overwhelmingly lawful and not really good at all. This is true. There’s a reason why the stereotypical paladin is referred to as “lawful stupid”, not “stupid good”. This despite the fact that the game rules have always made it clear that, while a paladin must be both Good and Lawful, the Good is more important: They have the power to detect and smite Evil, but not Chaos, and a single Chaotic act will not cause a paladin to fall from grace unless it’s significant enough to cause an alignment shift. I think the tendency towards Lawful Stupid comes because most folks self-identify as good, and most PCs are good, so making a paladin good doesn’t do much to distinguish him, but players can easily self-identify as, and characters can easily be, chaotic, so it distinguishes a paladin more to emphasize the lawfulness. ---
**Author:** ![Wolverine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wolverine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolverine)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1392 "2010-11-29T16:58:00Z")
The latest one is up. [#762 Found here.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html) Of course Evil people don’t self-identify as evil. Very few people actually consider themselves to be evil. It’s your actions that show your character. But I was wrong about Tarquin sabotaging the mission! ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1393 "2010-11-29T17:01:46Z")
That clinches it. Tarquin is the coolest character in the story now. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1394 "2010-11-29T17:46:16Z")
Oooo, innnnnnnnteresting. So we have a character here who appears to be Evil but not underhanded. I do wonder if Tarquin will show a different side towards Elan in the end. And I’m still mightily intrigued – why is it that Elan’s mother didn’t die of ‘mysterious causes,’ as so many of Tarquin’s wives seem to have done, and why did she agree to give up Nale instead of taking both boys? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1395 "2010-11-29T18:32:18Z")
Oh, he’s plenty underhanded… His whole behind-the-scenes conquest plan proves that. He’s just not evil-for-the-sake-of-evil. Elan’s mom wanted to keep both the kids, but (like Tarquin himself) had to settle for what she could get from the courts. And I suspect that it was the drawn-out, messy divorce proceedings that inspired Tarquin to seek more expeditious means of dissolving a marriage. Like, in sulfuric acid. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1396 "2010-11-29T18:53:06Z")
OK, Tarquin is going to die. I’m betting Xykon (who we haven’t seen for a while, which means he’s about to do something major) will kill him within the next 20 strips. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1397 "2010-11-29T19:03:48Z")
But the Ring of Regeneration will grow back whatever Xykon chops off. It got mentioned for a reason. Chekov demands that it be used! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1398 "2010-11-29T19:15:31Z")
A Ring of Regeneration is a perfectly cromulent magic item and a worthy addition to any character sheet, but it’s not much use against a Meteor Swarm. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1399 "2010-11-29T22:47:46Z")
The Ring of Regeneration will be for when Elan loses that hand. Except that it looks like Tarquin, for once, isn’t going be Vader in that scene. So, ah… his hand just falls off from acute drama-itis? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1400 "2010-11-30T00:16:54Z")
You guys all seem to be taking what Tarquin said at face value. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=69) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=71)