# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 74
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1461 "2010-12-19T08:50:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The conversation about the money presumedly is significant (the strip is titled “The Love of Money”). Is it supposed to show that Haley is committed enough to Elan that she’s willing to share her money with him? Or is a foreshadowing that money is going to come between them at some point? Or it’s a joke about having sex on the money. Did everyone else pick up on “three fingered discount”? I almost missed that one. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1462 "2010-12-19T10:13:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But telling Therkla to kill Elan herself created the strong possibility that she would rebel against his order (which is essentially what happened). Maybe Kubota was testing her loyalty or maybe he was annoyed that her loyalty had become questionable and was punishing her. But either possibility seems like a silly thing to do in the midst of the campaign against Hinjo. As I noted, Therkla was one of his most useful minions and he needed her services. Why take an unnecessary chance on losing her? I think it’s because Kubota is a megalomaniac. It’s not enough for his minions to simply serve him, they have to be absolutely, unquestionably loyal to him. Once he perceived that it was possible for her to be suborned, he had to put her in a position to unambiguously choose which side she was on. If she chose Kubota, not only would it demonstrate her loyalty, her guilt over killing Elan would give him an extra handle on her - not unlike what Xyklon did to Red-Cloak back in _Start of Darkness_. And if she chose to side with Elan, then she’s proven herself unreliable: if she’ll turn sides now, she could just as easily turn sides later. Kubota also felt himself to be pretty much untouchable by the party or Hinjo, so I don’t think he particularly cared if losing Therkla now would set him back, because I don’t think he was really capable of conceiving that he might not eventually get everything he wanted. He also wasn’t capable of considering the PCs as anything other than their archetypes. They’re the good guys, so they’re going to have to play by the rules, and Kubota’s title and political power made him untouchable inside of the rules. He didn’t consider that one of the party members might be sliding into a major alignment crisis, and wouldn’t care about the rules anymore. The idea that one of the Order might just straight up murder him and dump his carcass (or whatever remained thereof) overboard never occurred to him. Incidentally, it may be worth noting that Tarquin seems to be making the same sort of assumption about Elan. He’s expecting that Elan, being a bard, will follow the script he’s laid out, because it makes such a good story. If Elan acts out of character, though, Tarquin may not have an adequate contingency plan. On the other hand, compared to Tarquin, Kubota was a second-stringer, so Tarquin may serve as an example of how to run this sort of scheme correctly, as contrasted with Kubota’s efforts. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1463 "2010-12-19T10:17:36Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Or it’s a joke about having sex on the money. But that wouldn’t have required the our money vs your money set-up. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1464 "2010-12-19T10:32:10Z")
> [@](#): > > I think it’s because Kubota is a megalomaniac. It’s not enough for his minions to simply serve him, they have to be absolutely, unquestionably loyal to him. Once he perceived that it was possible for her to be suborned, he had to put her in a position to unambiguously choose which side she was on. If she chose Kubota, not only would it demonstrate her loyalty, her guilt over killing Elan would give him an extra handle on her - not unlike what Xyklon did to Red-Cloak back in Start of Darkness. And if she chose to side with Elan, then she’s proven herself unreliable: if she’ll turn sides now, she could just as easily turn sides later. > > Kubota also felt himself to be pretty much untouchable by the party or Hinjo, so I don’t think he particularly cared if losing Therkla now would set him back, because I don’t think he was really capable of conceiving that he might not eventually get everything he wanted. He also wasn’t capable of considering the PCs as anything other than their archetypes. They’re the good guys, so they’re going to have to play by the rules, and Kubota’s title and political power made him untouchable inside of the rules. He didn’t consider that one of the party members might be sliding into a major alignment crisis, and wouldn’t care about the rules anymore. The idea that one of the Order might just straight up murder him and dump his carcass (or whatever remained thereof) overboard never occurred to him. > > Incidentally, it may be worth noting that Tarquin seems to be making the same sort of assumption about Elan. He’s expecting that Elan, being a bard, will follow the script he’s laid out, because it makes such a good story. If Elan acts out of character, though, Tarquin may not have an adequate contingency plan. On the other hand, compared to Tarquin, Kubota was a second-stringer, so Tarquin may serve as an example of how to run this sort of scheme correctly, as contrasted with Kubota’s efforts. Kubota was a second stringer (Burlew himself has said this) but he wasn’t a fool. He never assumed things would follow his plans. So I figured he would consider the possibility that Therkla might use her ninja assassin skills against him. So why take that unnecessary risk? And even if he was certain he could outplot Therkla regardless of what she tried to do, there was still the undeniable possibility that she would fail the test and turn against him. If she did, he would lose her services even if he wasn’t directly threatened by her. So from Kubota’s point of view, the better plan was the one I described above. All if required was ruthlessness and deceit - two qualities we knew Kubota had plenty of. He should have told Therkla he was letting her have Elan and then arrnaged to have Elan killed. That would have suborned Therkla’s love for Elan into Kubota’s service. He would have gotten everything he wanted and risked nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Enterprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/76d3ee/32.png) [@Enterprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enterprise)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1465 "2010-12-19T11:57:18Z")
Rather a bit off the central topic, I have a question: I’m looking for Burlew’s written commentary on the strips in the _War and XPs_ volume, which is horribly expensive (300$!) right now. I’ve failed to find anyone with a copy locally, so I’m wondering if there might be some helpful person around here willing to scan those pages and send them? I can get all the other volumes for an okay price (possibly not Origin of PCs, but that remains to be seen), but _War and XPs_ is utterly impossible… ---
**Author:** ![Trion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Trion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trion)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1466 "2010-12-19T13:19:56Z")
I must have missed something. When did Haley learn that Tarquin had her dad? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1467 "2010-12-19T13:58:10Z")
> [@Trion](#): > > I must have missed something. When did Haley learn that Tarquin had her dad? Look at Elan’s face in the second-last panel of [758](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html), when Elan’s dad mentions that one country. Elan knows that’s where Haley’s dad was being held captive. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Shine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr_shine/32/464_2.png) [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1468 "2010-12-19T14:00:12Z")
Tarquin mentioned “Tyrania” to Elan as being one of his former shill nations, Hayley has already told Elan that her Dad is being imprisoned in Tyrania. Elan must have told Haley in the last strip. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1469 "2010-12-19T14:06:40Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Look at Elan’s face in the second-last panel of [758](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html), when Elan’s dad mentions that one country. And he says “Tyrinaria?? Did you just say, ‘Tyrinaria’??” in [759](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html). ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1470 "2010-12-19T18:12:04Z")
> [@Enterprise](#): > > Rather a bit off the central topic, I have a question: I’m looking for Burlew’s written commentary on the strips in the _War and XPs_ volume, which is horribly expensive (300$!) right now. I’ve failed to find anyone with a copy locally, so I’m wondering if there might be some helpful person around here willing to scan those pages and send them? I can get all the other volumes for an okay price (possibly not Origin of PCs, but that remains to be seen), but _War and XPs_ is utterly impossible… All of the books are available on [ookoodook](http://www.ookoodook.com/store/comics_order-of-the-stick.shtml) for under $35. ---
**Author:** ![Trion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Trion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trion)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1471 "2010-12-19T23:52:49Z")
Thanks guys. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1472 "2010-12-20T00:22:05Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > All of the books are available on [ookoodook](http://www.ookoodook.com/store/comics_order-of-the-stick.shtml) for under $35. Unless they’re out of stock. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1473 "2010-12-20T03:21:19Z")
For some reason, the “three-finger discount” really gets to me. Of course, in the OOTSverse, a “five-finger discount” would make no sense. Wouldn’t having money coming beneath their love be a bit uncomfortable? I mean, not that I’d know anything about it, but having sex on a pile of money sounds like you’d get coins wedged in some uncomfortable places at the very least. Also- if there’s gold underneath her, and Elan on top of her, would that count as a three-way? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1474 "2010-12-20T03:25:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Also- if there’s gold underneath her, and Elan on top of her, would that count as a three-way? I think that she would be completely and totally satisfied in that case, no matter how uncomfortable she was physically. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1475 "2010-12-20T05:24:15Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > Wouldn’t having money coming beneath their love be a bit uncomfortable? I mean, not that I’d know anything about it, but having sex on a pile of money sounds like you’d get coins wedged in some uncomfortable places at the very least. Behold! The real reason paper money was invented! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1476 "2010-12-20T07:36:00Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Kubota was a second stringer (Burlew himself has said this) but he wasn’t a fool. He never assumed things would follow his plans. So I figured he would consider the possibility that Therkla might use her ninja assassin skills against him. So why take that unnecessary risk? > > And even if he was certain he could outplot Therkla regardless of what she tried to do, there was still the undeniable possibility that she would fail the test and turn against him. If she did, he would lose her services even if he wasn’t directly threatened by her. > > So from Kubota’s point of view, the better plan was the one I described above. All if required was ruthlessness and deceit - two qualities we knew Kubota had plenty of. He should have told Therkla he was letting her have Elan and then arrnaged to have Elan killed. That would have suborned Therkla’s love for Elan into Kubota’s service. He would have gotten everything he wanted and risked nothing. I don’t think he was a fool, just overconfident and vain. From his point of view, finding out if Therkla would turn on him was not an unnecessary risk. While Kubota is no fool, his goals are not wholly rational. He’s driven by ambition and a desire to control. The idea that Terkla might disobey him - that he might not wholly control her - is intolerable to him. He has to find out if she’s entirely his, and if she’s not, he has to destroy her. This decision is not the result of a dispassionate cost/benefit analysis, but is the inevitable result of the neurosis that define him. ---
**Author:** ![Enterprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/76d3ee/32.png) [@Enterprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enterprise)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1477 "2010-12-20T08:50:38Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > All of the books are available on [ookoodook](http://www.ookoodook.com/store/comics_order-of-the-stick.shtml) for under $35. You’d hope so, wouldn’t you. But they’re not. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1478 "2010-12-29T00:01:41Z")
[New post-holiday comic!](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0766.html) Those last two panels are gold. GOLD. So unexpected, yet so completely logical. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1479 "2010-12-29T00:44:30Z")
I realize Tarquin is all evil and all, but I think I’m madly in love. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1480 "2010-12-29T00:58:09Z")
> [@shantih](#): > > I realize Tarquin is all evil and all, but I think I’m madly in love. He’s like an Anti-Bard. He fully recognizes all of the same Dramatic Requirements that Elan does, but he manages to subvert them all to help him hold power. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=73) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=75)