# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 81
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1601 "2011-02-13T05:48:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’ve said this before but I’m guessing Vaarsuvius’ act of genocide has become known to the wider world. Seeing how cavalier elves are with goblin lives, why should they care about a few throusand black dragons? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1602 "2011-02-13T06:40:26Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Seeing how cavalier elves are with goblin lives, why should they care about a few throusand black dragons? [Some](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html) of those killed were part-dragons. From the [description](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html) of the spell, it would have killed the non-dragon relatives of those part-dragons as well. And the part-dragons might have had friends themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1603 "2011-02-13T07:33:23Z")
That’s true; however, the comic has taken care to portray elves as being self-superior speciesists. If black dragons are inheriently evil, then so are all creatures bearing black dragon blood, and those associating themselves with them. I think it’s something else. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1604 "2011-02-13T07:59:30Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s true; however, the comic has taken care to portray elves as being self-superior speciesists. If black dragons are inheriently evil, then so are all creatures bearing black dragon blood, and those associating themselves with them. > > I think it’s something else. If it’s about choosing to ally with evil, then V still has problems. Not only did he make a deal with representative of all three evil alignments, he hosted three evil spellcasters’ souls in his body and used their evil spells for his own ends. And if THAT tidbit got back to the elves, so might the _terms_ of the deal, terms which make V still dangerous, since the three evil reps still hold claim to a good 20 minutes of V’s time. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1605 "2011-02-13T08:05:08Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s true; however, the comic has taken care to portray elves as being self-superior speciesists. If black dragons are inheriently evil, then so are all creatures bearing black dragon blood, and those associating themselves with them. _Are_ they though? I seem to recall it being said that the part-dragons weren’t innately Evil in the discussion when the relevant comic first came out. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1606 "2011-02-13T08:18:38Z")
The question is whether the elves \*think \*they are. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1607 "2011-02-13T12:23:01Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s true; however, the comic has taken care to portray elves as being self-superior speciesists. Has it? I’ve never seen that. Cite? I’ve never seen any evidence that V is a speciesist. He is friends with humans and a dwarf. His dislike of Belkar has nothing to do with race. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1608 "2011-02-13T13:04:56Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Has it? I’ve never seen that. Cite? I’ve never seen any evidence that V is a speciesist. He is friends with humans and a dwarf. His dislike of Belkar has nothing to do with race. [Here](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html), for instance. I was talking about elves in general, not V - who at this point is a bit more cosmopolitan than most elves (remember, we never see elves simply mingling with humans, even in the background - other than V, they only interact with other races when on official business). Still, for at least half the strip, Haley was the only member of the Order who was truly his friend, and while his formerly oft-stated sense of superiority was usually attributed to his wizardhood, I suspect there’s a strong element of elvishness in his attitude. In other words, elves are dicks. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1609 "2011-02-13T14:55:11Z")
You have to remember that the characters are not reading the strip. They don’t know Vaarsuvius is a main protagonist in world history and haven’t followed all the subtle details of the story. All the elves know is that Vaarsuvius is apparently an extremely powerful wizard who’s gone evil, killed millions of dragons, was present when Azure City fell, worked with demons and devils, and been involved in a major threat to the existence of the universe. And Burlew has repeatedly made the point that being good doesn’t make you smart. Lawful Good characters let their alignment blind them - they figure they’re Good so anything they do can be justified as serving Good and anyone who opposes them can be eliminated because they must be Evil. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1610 "2011-02-13T15:19:13Z")
I think you guys are off-track. “Was that elf glaring at you?” “Now is not the time.” That exchange indicates two things: 1. V knows he’s being glared at. 2. He knows why but doesn’t care to explain. I’m thinking ex-brother-in-law or something similar. I think it’s personal. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1611 "2011-02-13T16:16:10Z")
She. Or, if gender really is an irrelevant concept to elves in the OOTS universe, then “it”. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1612 "2011-02-14T00:01:13Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I think you guys are off-track. > > “Was that elf glaring at you?” > “Now is not the time.” > > That exchange indicates two things: > > 1. V knows he’s being glared at. > 2. He knows why but doesn’t care to explain. Or that V is being short sighted and dismissive again, heading for another “I tried to tell you” moment. That’s how I took it, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1613 "2011-02-14T01:19:01Z")
I’m actually thinking ex-inlaw, actually. The colour of the elvish ambassador’s hair is the same as the colour of V’s mate’s hair, no? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1614 "2011-02-14T01:33:00Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > The colour of the elvish ambassador’s hair is the same as the colour of V’s mate’s hair, no? Hmmm. [Very](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html) [close](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0641.html), not sure if it’s exactly identical. ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1615 "2011-02-14T04:56:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Hmmm. [Very](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html) [close](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0641.html), not sure if it’s exactly identical. V’s mate is ```auto R 51.0% G 78.0% B 24.7% ``` Whereas the elven ambassador is ```auto R 30.2% G 63.9% B 30.2% ``` On the other hand, in [this](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html) flashback strip featuring young Haley and Haley’s (younger) father, they each have precisely the same hair color, to wit: ```auto R 81.2% G 57.6% B 34.9% ``` So no, I don’t think there’s any relation between V’s mate and the ambassador. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1616 "2011-02-14T07:42:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And Burlew has repeatedly made the point that being good doesn’t make you smart. Lawful Good characters let their alignment blind them - they figure they’re Good so anything they do can be justified as serving Good and anyone who opposes them can be eliminated because they must be Evil. I don’t think that’s necessarily true. Roy’s not like that. Neither is Durkon (except about trees), or Hinjo. In fact, the only LG person in the strip that’s true of is Miko. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1617 "2011-02-14T07:51:42Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I don’t think that’s necessarily true. Roy’s not like that. Neither is Durkon (except about trees), or Hinjo. In fact, the only LG person in the strip that’s true of is Miko. There’s the indiscriminate massacre of goblins by the paladins in the backstory. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1618 "2011-02-14T14:23:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > There’s the indiscriminate massacre of goblins by the paladins in the backstory. Right, but goblins: 1. Are an evil race. and 1. Were created by the gods as a source of XP for adventurers. (to try to stop that, the Dark One rose up, and for revenge, Redcloak is going along with Xyklon to unleash the Snarl) So it’s not an evil act to kill goblins. We also know it’s not an evil act to kill goblins because Paladins stop being Paladins if they commit an evil act (see Miko’s fall from grace), and the Paladins didn’t stop being paladins for massacring the goblins in the backstory. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1619 "2011-02-14T14:27:20Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Right, but goblins: > > 1. Are an evil race. > > and > > 1. Were created by the gods as a source of XP for adventurers. (to try to stop that, the Dark One rose up, and for revenge, Redcloak is going along with Xyklon to unleash the Snarl) So it’s not an evil act to kill goblins. We also know it’s not an evil act to kill goblins because Paladins stop being Paladins if they commit an evil act (see Miko’s fall from grace), and the Paladins didn’t stop being paladins for massacring the goblins in the backstory. That just means that it isn’t Officially Evil according to the same gods who created them as XP fodder. Which to be blunt basically makes the PCs into Morlocks to the goblin’s Eloi if you think about it. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1620 "2011-02-14T14:30:52Z")
Right. There’s \*technically \*good and there’s \*actually \*good- paladins and elves seem to care about the former, while Burlew (and increasingly, the Order) care about the latter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=80) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=82)