# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 87
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1721 "2011-03-09T17:19:44Z")
Since Belkar is by far the most fun character in the strip, I don’t want him checking out until the story’s over. Don’t precipitate on my procession. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1722 "2011-03-11T17:08:19Z")
New post: [The Duel Everyone’s Been Waiting For.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1723 "2011-03-11T17:53:16Z")
OK, that was a little grosser than it needed to be, but still funny. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1724 "2011-03-11T18:11:12Z")
Wow, either level 1 Commoners have incredibly low hit points or Mr. Scruffy has some ninja levels. ---
**Author:** ![Ura-Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Ura-Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ura-Maru)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1725 "2011-03-11T18:56:50Z")
Actually, it’s a good punchline if you know the buildup. It’s standard joke complaint about 3rd edition D&D, that a 1st level Commoner can be killed by a house cat. The commoner class is deliberately designed as terrible as possible, so even your wimpy wizard can punch out a drunk in a bar. Cause gods forbid ordinary people should get in the way of your awesomeness, even for a brief moment at first level. (Before 3rd edition, commoners were EVEN WORSE) 1st level Commoners have 4 HP, so does a cat (I think). A cat does only one point of damage, I believe, but gets two attacks, is very likely to go first, and is much harder to hit than the Commoner, who gets only one 1d3 attack, but because he’s unarmed, he takes a -4 to hit, and provokes an Attack of Opportunity from the cat if he does so. So he’s likely to both miss, and get hurt more every time he attacks. ## So the odds of the cat getting 4 hits before the Commoner gets the two he needs (on average) is very good. If the Commoner is smart and manages to Grapple the cat, he can probably win, but if the commoner was smart, he would have chosen a better class. The later D20 games, Modern in particular, made average guys much better. Which is often an unpleasant surprise for players during their first Modern game . . . This was before 4th edition came along, and suddenly everything about third edition had always been perfect. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1726 "2011-03-11T19:19:06Z")
Don’t mess with MR. SCRUFFY. Belkar himself has said, “He’s a stone-cold killer.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1727 "2011-03-11T20:07:02Z")
Actually, wizards and commoners are about equal, in a nonmagic fight. And wizards also often get razzed on for being vulnerable to housecats. But really, it’s not all that unrealistic. A homocidally crazy housecat really could mortally wound a typical human, with the element of surprise. It’s happened. It’s just that, although most housecats are crazy, they’re usually not _homocidally_ crazy: They know that if they kill the humans, there will be nobody left to use the can opener. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1728 "2011-03-11T20:40:08Z")
Belkar also has levels in ranger, and rangers get an animal companion, whose combat abilities improve as the ranger gets levels. Mr. Scruffy is likely Belkar’s animal companion, and Belkar is a pretty high level ranger/barbarian multiclass. So Mr. Scruffy probably has better attacks and hit points than your standard house cat. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1729 "2011-03-11T21:10:31Z")
The only appropriate word there is awesome. I wanna be Mr. Scruffy when I grow up. ---
**Author:** ![Ura-Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Ura-Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ura-Maru)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1730 "2011-03-11T22:09:29Z")
Despite their innate evil, I doubt an average RL housecat could kill a reasonably healthy (Con 10-11) RL human adult in a ‘fair’ fight. We’re just too far out of thier weight class. Cats don’t fight fair, though. The traditional cat attack is (Improved) tripping the stumbling biped as they’re carrying laundry down the stairs. My sister’s cat has almost murdered me on several occasions with that one. Little (adorable) bastard. Of course, in Champions, a newborn baby can throw a football more than 100 yards . . . – Real life cats have Rogue levels. Old ones usually multiclass into Warlock ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1731 "2011-03-11T22:16:09Z")
Wow, that was disgusting. I don’t think I’ve ever seen Rich draw intestines before. Mr. Scruffy, as usual, is awesomeness squared. ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1732 "2011-03-11T22:21:50Z")
Who gets XP for that? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1733 "2011-03-11T22:30:25Z")
Mr. Scruffy. Not like a 1st level Commoner is worth anything. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1734 "2011-03-11T22:31:58Z")
_Never_ mess with Mr. Scruffy when his halfling is on the line. Thanks for the explanation for the in-joke, **Ura-Maru**! ---
**Author:** ![vislor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vislor/32/5933_2.png) [@vislor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vislor)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1735 "2011-03-11T23:18:41Z")
> [@Ura-Maru](#): > > - > > This was before 4th edition came along, and suddenly everything about third edition had always been perfect. Awesome points for that! thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1736 "2011-03-12T07:22:45Z")
I enjoyed Belkar worrying about everyone getting all bent out of shape if he actually killed his opponent. He had no moral qualms, he just didn’t want to get stuck with another Mark or something. And, of course, he can squabble AND deflect or evade the attacks at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1737 "2011-03-12T07:26:14Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > And, of course, he can squabble AND deflect or evade the attacks at the same time. Hey, speaking is a free action. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1738 "2011-03-12T08:32:44Z")
> [@Ura-Maru](#): > > Despite their innate evil, I doubt an average RL housecat could kill a reasonably healthy (Con 10-11) RL human adult in a ‘fair’ fight. We’re just too far out of thier weight class. > > Cats don’t fight fair, though. The traditional cat attack is (Improved) tripping the stumbling biped as they’re carrying laundry down the stairs. My sister’s cat has almost murdered me on several occasions with that one. Little (adorable) bastard. > > Of course, in Champions, a newborn baby can throw a football more than 100 yards . …and in early editions at least, an ordinary person could reduce a car to scrap metal in a minute with their bare feet. And in 1st Ed AD&D, a high-level fighter could walk away from a fall from _any_ height. Ahh, Murphy’s Rules. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1739 "2011-03-12T12:09:44Z")
> [@Ura-Maru](#): > > Actually, it’s a good punchline if you know the buildup. > > It’s standard joke complaint about 3rd edition D&D, that a 1st level Commoner can be killed by a house cat. The commoner class is deliberately designed as terrible as possible, so even your wimpy wizard can punch out a drunk in a bar. Cause gods forbid ordinary people should get in the way of your awesomeness, even for a brief moment at first level. (Before 3rd edition, commoners were EVEN WORSE) > > 1st level Commoners have 4 HP, so does a cat (I think). A cat does only one point of damage, I believe, but gets two attacks, is very likely to go first, and is much harder to hit than the Commoner, who gets only one 1d3 attack, but because he’s unarmed, he takes a -4 to hit, and provokes an Attack of Opportunity from the cat if he does so. So he’s likely to both miss, and get hurt more every time he attacks. > > So the odds of the cat getting 4 hits before the Commoner gets the two he needs (on average) is very good. If the Commoner is smart and manages to Grapple the cat, he can probably win, but if the commoner was smart, he would have chosen a better class. Three attacks, not two. Two claws at +4, one bite at -1. Each can only do 1 point of damage though, barring magical fuckery. Cats also have ridiculous Dex bonuses to stealth for their level and rock a 14 Armour Class (that’s about on par with an average grunt in chainmail, for comparison). Frankly, a handful of alley toms could destroy even a lvl 1 Barbarian most easily, nevermind a Commoner. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1740 "2011-03-12T20:11:56Z")
Belkar’s at least a level 12 ranger (it’s not known whether he went for ranger or barbarian levels after that), which means that Scruffy as his animal companion gets 4 bonus HD, +4 natural armor, +2 to Str and Dex, and can learn three more tricks than an ordinary cat. The strength increase isn’t enough to raise Scruffy’s damage above 1 per hit, but the bonus HD would grant him another feat, and there’s probably some feat or another that would raise his damage output enough to kill the commoner in a single round. And the extra HD and natural armor would make him much harder to kill. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=86) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=88)