# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 88
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1741 "2011-03-12T20:18:08Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Belkar’s at least a level 12 ranger (it’s not known whether he went for ranger or barbarian levels after that), which means that Scruffy as his animal companion gets 4 bonus HD, +4 natural armor, +2 to Str and Dex, and can learn three more tricks than an ordinary cat. The strength increase isn’t enough to raise Scruffy’s damage above 1 per hit, but the bonus HD would grant him another feat, and there’s probably some feat or another that would raise his damage output enough to kill the commoner in a single round. And the extra HD and natural armor would make him much harder to kill. I love that I am in a thread where someone can make this argument! ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1742 "2011-03-12T20:41:51Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > I love that I am in a thread where someone can make this argument! Of course, it’s a thread about a comic that can plausibly make this argument in the first place…I think OOTS’s nerd quotient is even higher than XKCD’s, within a narrow range of interests. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1743 "2011-03-12T21:03:39Z")
> [@](#): > > can learn three more tricks than an ordinary cat Just how many tricks can an ordinary cat learn? How many tricks WILL an ordinary cat learn? And how many will it perform on cue? Other than the “I’m a poor starving kitty” trick, that worked so well at lunch time? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1744 "2011-03-13T10:23:24Z")
> [@Ura-Maru](#): > > 1st level Commoners have 4 HP, so does a cat (I think). A cat does only one point of damage, I believe, but gets two attacks, is very likely to go first 1st level Commoners have 1d4 HP, and the typical stat for a Commoner is 8, not 10, for a -1 modifier. So a 1st level Commoner normally has 1-3 HP. Call it 2. Mr Scruffy, being an Advanced cat, probably has Weapon Focus: Claws and Weapon Specialisation: Claws for +1 to hit and +2 damage. That’s instant death. But in v3.5, death is actually at -10, so Mr Scruffy has probably used Power Attack for + a few. Mr Scruffy needs to inflict 12 HP damage: 1 for the claw, +2 WS, +2 PA is 5 damage per hit. If both attacks were to hit and one were a critical, then that’s 15 HP damage right there. More than enough to kill. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1745 "2011-03-13T10:57:46Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > 1st level Commoners have 1d4 HP, and the typical stat for a Commoner is 8, not 10, for a -1 modifier. Even Commoners don’t get 8s as a typical stat. > [@](#): > > …Mr Scruffy has probably used Power Attack for + a few. You can’t use Power Attack without the Power Attack feat and the prerequisite strength. Mr Scruffy has neither. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1746 "2011-03-13T11:18:31Z")
Also, is there a Monstrous Feat version of Weapon Specialization? If not, then Mr. Scruffy would need at least four levels in Fighter in order to qualify for it. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1747 "2011-03-13T11:45:52Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Also, is there a Monstrous Feat version of Weapon Specialization? If not, then Mr. Scruffy would need at least four levels in Fighter in order to qualify for it. Call it GM fiat. > [@Grumman](#): > > Even Commoners don’t get 8s as a typical stat. I stand to be corrected, but I believe they do. > [@](#): > > You can’t use Power Attack without the Power Attack feat and the prerequisite strength. Mr Scruffy has neither. Human STR \<\> Feline Str. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1748 "2011-03-13T16:56:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Human STR \<\> Feline Str. Right; human Str is often great enough to qualify for Power Attack, while feline Str never is. And there’s no monstrous version of Weapon Specialization, and even if there were, it would offset the strength penalty to damage, so his attacks would be at 1d3-1, 1d3-1, 1d2-1. This would at least give him a chance of doing more than 1 damage with his claws, but not with his bite. Better would be a feat that would give Sneak Attack or some other similar form of bonus damage, but there’s not one of those in the core rules, and I can’t think of any applicable ones in splatbooks off the top of my head. ---
**Author:** ![Ura-Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Ura-Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ura-Maru)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1749 "2011-03-13T22:33:51Z")
For the record, here’s the SRD for the [Cat](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm) and [Commoner](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/commoner.htm), as well as the [Animal, and Humanoid](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm)monster types. Yes, Commoner is signifigantly inferior to Humanoid. Standard NPCs and monsters get the ‘standard’ array of stats in 3.5. That is, 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10, arranged to taste. Good NPCs and better monsters often use the elite array, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. This does add to their challenge level, though, so can’t be considered default. I’d forgotton that NPCs don’t get full hit points at first level, so both the average Cat and average commoner have 2.5 hp, 1d4 for the Commoner, (1d8)/2 for the Cat. The (joking) complaint refers to the ‘average’ state. This particular case includes equipment, though. Mr. Justice can’t have more than two feats, (one for 1st level, one as his Human racial bonus) so he can’t be proficient in a martial weapon (Scimitar, one feat, -4 to hit if he’s non-proficent), any type of armor (one feat for Light, another for Medium, another for heavy, armor check penalties apply to attack rolls if non-proficient) AND a shield (one feat. That is clearly a Large Shield +2 AC, -2 to hit if he’s not proficient) He can abuse the armor rules, though. That gladiator outfit looks roughly equivalent to Leather Armor, which has a Armor Check penalty of 0. So he can add two to his AC without the feat at no loss. So he has one attack at +0 to hit, does 1d6 damage (threatens a double damage crit on 18-20, but he’s got to make the to-hit roll again to confirm) and has an AC of 14. Even assuming Mr. Scruffy is a totally average cat, it could go either way. Mr Scruffy is likely to go first, (+2 initiative bonus) has to roll a 10 to hit him with a claw and a 15 to hit him with a bite. Mr. Justice needs to roll a 14 to hit Mr. Scruffy, though now he only needs to hit him once. (unless he rolls a one for damage) HOWEVER, Mr. Scruffy needs to enter Mr. Justice’s square to attack (cats are Tiny) so an armed Mr Justice will get at least one Attack of Opportunity BEFORE Mr Scruffy can attack at all, (unless Mr. Justice is surprised, or if Mr. Scruffy is making a 5’ step) AND Mr. Scruffy doesn’t have Pounce, so he can’t make a full attack if he moves more than one square. So, Advantage: Mr. Scruffy but it’s swingy. (I think, someone else can do the math) If we give both of them max starting HP, the odds swing a bit further towards the human. The higher chance of a crit means that Mr. Justice has a slightly greater than average chance of killing Mr Scruffy with one hit (a d6 averages 3.5, the enhanced crit range moves that average to something like 3.7) and the cat needs one or two more hits. Still in Mr Scruffy’s favor, but by less. If we add the Elite Array: Mr. Scruffy has Finesse and a high racial dex bonus, so he can toss the 15 in Dex and the 14 in Con, for a net gain of +2 to hit, +2 to AC, and +2 HP. Assume Mr. Justice puts the two high stats in Str and Con and the 13 or 12 in Dex, as he should. Mr Scruffy now needs to hit Mr. Justice six times, but his chances of hitting have improved. He now only needs a 9 for a claw and a 14 for a bite, and will have a bit better chance to go first. (+4 vs +1) Nothing else has changed, all the other benefits cancel each other out. This is a bit better for Mr. Justice, but he still needs a good attack roll followed by an average damage roll to win. I’d call this one even. Elite array without max starting HP favors Mr. Scruffy, though. – Mr. Justice is a TERRIBLE build. If he had his heart set on Commoner, he should have stuck with a Simple Weapon (he’s proficient in A SINGLE ONE as a Commoner), spent one feat on Light Armor (Chain Shirt, +4 AC) and his second on either Weapon Focus (Morning Star/Mace/Spear), +1 to hit, which is only OK long term, but pretty good at level 1, Shield Prof (+2 ac, mediocre long term, but pretty good at L1) or Toughness (+3 HP, absolutely horrid normally, but pretty good as long as you never fight anything that does more than 1hp a hit) ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1750 "2011-03-14T05:15:45Z")
As long as we’re dissecting RPG minutiae, why would Belkar not get XP for his kills in [this](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) strip? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1751 "2011-03-14T05:38:10Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > As long as we’re dissecting RPG minutiae, why would Belkar not get XP for his kills in [this](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) strip? Belkar, in that scene, is at least a 12th level character, maybe as high as 15th, which is pretty high level - the basic experience level chart only goes to 20th level, after which you need to get the special Epic Level supplement to keep advancing. Hobgoblins, on the other hand, are one Hit Die creatures. A one HD creature is usually at a modest disadvantage when paired against a first level player character. A one HD creature against a 12th level character is pretty much a foregone conclusion: the only way Belkar could miss an attack roll against one of those hobgoblins would be by rolling a one on a 20 sided die, and Belkar’s minimum damage is still likely high enough to kill a hob with a single hit. The hobgoblins, on the other hand, likely need to roll a twenty to hit Belkar, and it would take a dozen blows, each at maximum damage, to whittle a high level character down. D&D awards experience points based on the challenge an encounter presents to a character, with the amount of points dwindling the more a character outstrips his opponent, until it gets to the point where an encounter isn’t worth any experience points at all. Technically, if killing one hobgoblin is worth zero experience points, killing a hundred is still worth zero points. Which is good example of how a literal adherence to the rules of the game can lead to ridiculous outcomes, which is one of the running gags of the strip. If I were running a game where someone pulled off a scene like Belkar just did, he’d definitely get some hefty XP rewards. For one thing, even if a hob needs a 20 to hit him, if you throw a hundred goons at him, you’re going to see some twenties come up - which is evident from the wounds Belkar takes in that fight. So he’s clearly not completely safe in that fight, which is worth some points right there. Plus, even if he’s relatively safe himself, he’s helping protect the city, which is worth some story XP - a player doesn’t have to be in danger to get experience points, if he’s doing something to advance the plot. Lastly, any player of mine who busted out with, “I am a sexy shoeless god of war!” in the middle of fight has earned himself a couple thou in experience points just for making me laugh my ass off. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1752 "2011-03-14T05:48:27Z")
Miller: great explanation. Thank you!! And sexy shoeless exclamations gotta be worth something, any day of the week. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1753 "2011-03-14T06:00:57Z")
> [@Ura-Maru](#): > > Mr. Scruffy doesn’t have Pounce This is not realistic. As a cat, Mr. Scruffy has been practicing Pounce since he was a tiny kitten, and since he has been allied with Belkar and the Order, he has likely been performing it more often lately than when he was a Palace Cat. ---
**Author:** ![Ura-Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Ura-Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ura-Maru)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1754 "2011-03-14T06:25:15Z")
Pounce, the power, allows a full attack (multiple attacks) after a move. Big cats do have it, it’s their signature power. Plain ‘cats’ don’t, presumably because most player characters are bigger than a squirel. It’s crazy good for monsters, and downright broken for players. – Well, technically Mr. Scruffy COULD have Pounce, if he took two levels in that broken Barbarian subclass . . . ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1755 "2011-03-14T06:37:35Z")
Further, with the big cats, Pounce also generally lets them make two rake attacks with their rear claws, in addition to their usual claw/claw/bite. As for why housecats have neither of these abilities, my best guess is that when they were writing the rules, they didn’t really expect cats to be seeing much combat, and so didn’t bother to think too deeply about them. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1756 "2011-03-14T06:39:23Z")
Oh, and in case everyone didn’t see the announcement, there’s a new book out now with reprints of all the strips that ran in Dragon Magazine, plus 80 more pages of never-before-seen content. You might have to take my word for it, though-- The site is crawling right now. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1757 "2011-03-14T16:01:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Oh, and in case everyone didn’t see the announcement, there’s a new book out now with reprints of all the strips that ran in Dragon Magazine, plus 80 more pages of never-before-seen content. You might have to take my word for it, though-- The site is crawling right now. [The link](http://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTSDr.html). ---
**Author:** ![vislor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vislor/32/5933_2.png) [@vislor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vislor)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1758 "2011-03-14T17:09:08Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > [The link](http://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTSDr.html). Thanks! pre-ordered mine just now! Now I can’t wait for it! ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1759 "2011-03-14T19:10:28Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > As long as we’re dissecting RPG minutiae, why would Belkar not get XP for his kills in [this](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) strip? Actually Belkar might, because the XP award is based on the toughness (CR) of the encounter, not the toughness of the individual monster. And the CR is based on a party of 4 and Belkar is alone. If the GM scores it a sequence of CR 1 encounters, he won’t get anything. If the GM scores it as a CR 8 encounter as a whole, then he’ll get a little XP. And Belkar will get roleplaying XP for his awesome battle cry anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1760 "2011-03-14T20:56:14Z")
> [@Ura-Maru](#): > > For the record, here’s the SRD for the [Cat](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm) and [Commoner](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/commoner.htm), as well as the [Animal, and Humanoid](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm)monster types. Yes, Commoner is signifigantly inferior to Humanoid. > > Standard NPCs and monsters get the ‘standard’ array of stats in 3.5. That is, 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10, arranged to taste. Good NPCs and better monsters often use the elite array, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. This does add to their challenge level, though, so can’t be considered default. > > I’d forgotton that NPCs don’t get full hit points at first level, so both the average Cat and average commoner have 2.5 hp, 1d4 for the Commoner, (1d8)/2 for the Cat. > > The (joking) complaint refers to the ‘average’ state. This particular case includes equipment, though. Mr. Justice can’t have more than two feats, (one for 1st level, one as his Human racial bonus) so he can’t be proficient in a martial weapon (Scimitar, one feat, -4 to hit if he’s non-proficent), any type of armor (one feat for Light, another for Medium, another for heavy, armor check penalties apply to attack rolls if non-proficient) AND a shield (one feat. That is clearly a Large Shield +2 AC, -2 to hit if he’s not proficient) > > He can abuse the armor rules, though. That gladiator outfit looks roughly equivalent to Leather Armor, which has a Armor Check penalty of 0. So he can add two to his AC without the feat at no loss. > > So he has one attack at +0 to hit, does 1d6 damage (threatens a double damage crit on 18-20, but he’s got to make the to-hit roll again to confirm) and has an AC of 14. Even assuming Mr. Scruffy is a totally average cat, it could go either way. Mr Scruffy is likely to go first, (+2 initiative bonus) has to roll a 10 to hit him with a claw and a 15 to hit him with a bite. Mr. Justice needs to roll a 14 to hit Mr. Scruffy, though now he only needs to hit him once. (unless he rolls a one for damage) > > HOWEVER, Mr. Scruffy needs to enter Mr. Justice’s square to attack (cats are Tiny) so an armed Mr Justice will get at least one Attack of Opportunity BEFORE Mr Scruffy can attack at all, (unless Mr. Justice is surprised, or if Mr. Scruffy is making a 5’ step) AND Mr. Scruffy doesn’t have Pounce, so he can’t make a full attack if he moves more than one square. So, Advantage: Mr. Scruffy but it’s swingy. (I think, someone else can do the math) > > If we give both of them max starting HP, the odds swing a bit further towards the human. The higher chance of a crit means that Mr. Justice has a slightly greater than average chance of killing Mr Scruffy with one hit (a d6 averages 3.5, the enhanced crit range moves that average to something like 3.7) and the cat needs one or two more hits. Still in Mr Scruffy’s favor, but by less. > > If we add the Elite Array: Mr. Scruffy has Finesse and a high racial dex bonus, so he can toss the 15 in Dex and the 14 in Con, for a net gain of +2 to hit, +2 to AC, and +2 HP. Assume Mr. Justice puts the two high stats in Str and Con and the 13 or 12 in Dex, as he should. Mr Scruffy now needs to hit Mr. Justice six times, but his chances of hitting have improved. He now only needs a 9 for a claw and a 14 for a bite, and will have a bit better chance to go first. (+4 vs +1) > > Nothing else has changed, all the other benefits cancel each other out. This is a bit better for Mr. Justice, but he still needs a good attack roll followed by an average damage roll to win. I’d call this one even. Elite array without max starting HP favors Mr. Scruffy, though. > > – > Mr. Justice is a TERRIBLE build. If he had his heart set on Commoner, he should have stuck with a Simple Weapon (he’s proficient in A SINGLE ONE as a Commoner), spent one feat on Light Armor (Chain Shirt, +4 AC) and his second on either Weapon Focus (Morning Star/Mace/Spear), +1 to hit, which is only OK long term, but pretty good at level 1, Shield Prof (+2 ac, mediocre long term, but pretty good at L1) or Toughness (+3 HP, absolutely horrid normally, but pretty good as long as you never fight anything that does more than 1hp a hit) Wow, **Ura-Maru**. Extrapolating the likeliest D&D attributes of a comic strip character? I think I just had a nerdgasm. Thank you for this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=87) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=89)