# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 94
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1861 "2011-03-30T19:20:25Z")
Even if that’s true, does Hinjo know it’s true? Is he willing to bet his people’s lives on the capriciousness of an evil lich? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1862 "2011-03-30T19:31:02Z")
Hinjo knows that the only purpose of the invasion was to take control of the gate. Even that’s a moot point, after the gate was destroyed. And Redcloak only hates the paladins, maybe the army too. He won’t care about ordinary civilians either way. The reasonable supposition is that they can safely leave at least some of their citizens at cow town. Though it probably can’t support all of them. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1863 "2011-03-30T20:35:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I agree Redcloak would have wanted to conquer the rest of the kingdom. But Redcloak isn’t the one in charge. Xykon barely wanted to keep Azure City - he wasn’t going to waste time in further conquests in order to hold a city he didn’t really want anyway. Xykon doesn’t need the hobgoblins any more - they did what he wanted from then, and now they can go about looting and plundering like good little conquerers. They’ll be around if he needs them again. Remember, Xykon is the Big Picture guy. What does he care if the hobbos sack a town or two? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1864 "2011-03-30T20:53:17Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I agree Redcloak would have wanted to conquer the rest of the kingdom. But Redcloak isn’t the one in charge. Xykon barely wanted to keep Azure City - he wasn’t going to waste time in further conquests in order to hold a city he didn’t really want anyway. Redcloak is in charge. The hobgoblins answer to him, not to Xykon. Of course, Redcloak only lives at Xykon’s mercy, so if Xykon tells his Redcloak to make his hobgoblin army jump, the army jumps. But now that Xykon no longer needs an army to conquer a gate, he doesn’t care what happens to it. If Redcloak can conquer the rest of Azuria, Xykon won’t care, just so long as it doesn’t prevent Redcloak from doing his part on finding and unlocking the gates. And Redcloak [has already taken steps](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0703.html) to ensure the continuation of leadership for the new hobgoblin nation once he’s gone off with Xykon to find the next gate. > [@Little Nemo](#): > > ``` > As I wrote before, it was an issue that could have been avoided. Burlew had no need to invent a southern half of the kingdom. Azure City could have been the entire kingdom. > > ``` How would that work? Azure City is supposed to be one of the major capitals of this world. It has hundreds of thousands of people in it, possibly as many as a million. You need a _lot_ of farmland to support that many people, particularly if you’re using medieval farming techniques. > [@](#): > > So the fact that he did invent a southern half, makes me wonder if Burlew has something in mind. I doubt he had much in mind beyond wanting to create a realistic fantasy world. For a certain value of the word “realistic,” of course. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1865 "2011-03-30T21:00:52Z")
> [@](#): > > But would the Azurites know that? They can’t scry on the city. They only know that the hobgoblins have taken up residence in the city. > [@](#): > > Even if that’s true, does Hinjo know it’s true? Is he willing to bet his people’s lives on the capriciousness of an evil lich? > [@](#): > > Hinjo knows that the only purpose of the invasion was to take control of the gate. There are various possibilities. 1. Xykon and the goblins were only interested in Azure City and have no plans to conquer the rest of the Azurite kingdom. 2. Xykon and the goblins conquered the Azure City as a first step in their plan to conquer the entire kingdom. 3. The war with Xykon and the goblins continues and the fleet should find a nearby base were they can organize the resistance in and liberation of Azure City. 4. The main goal now the survival of the evacuees so they need to find some place that can support them with food and supplies. The problem is that the response to every one of these possibilities seems to be the same: go to the south lands. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1866 "2011-03-30T21:10:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The problem is that the response to every one of these possibilities seems to be the same: go to the south lands. But that’s a \*horrible \*response! There’s no cities down there - there’s barely any geography. And they’re only a couple days march away from the gigantic army that just handed them their heads when they were defending a walled city athwart a mountain pass. If they couldn’t hold that position, how do you expect them to hold an unfortified position in the middle of a featureless plain? ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1867 "2011-03-30T23:16:54Z")
I’m not sure if paladins are necessarily the best option for leadership when moving to a Guerrilla phase either. Best for Hinjo to organize an organized counteroffensive elsewhere, and let the sneaky types handle the resistance. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1868 "2011-03-31T09:21:57Z")
Anyway, getting back to the most recent strip: one thing that interests me is that Belkar tells Ian not to let Roy know it was Belkar’s idea. When has Belkar ever cared about what Roy thinks of his actions? If he’s doing something reprehensible (like feeding a bunch of nameless goons to an allosaur just for giggles), he brags about it because he knows it drives Roy nuts. If he’s doing one of his faux “I’m a good guy now!” routines he learned from Hallucinatory Shojo, he brags about it because it advances his agenda of pretending to be a team player. If he’s doing something that’s genuinely tactically smart, he brags about it because he thought of it instead of anyone else. Pretty much, _anything_ Belkar does, he brags about, usually because bragging about it hurts, confuses, or discomforts his allies. But not this time. This time, he threatens to castrate a man if he lets anyone know what he did. I think Belkar may have just committed a genuinely altruistic good deed. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1869 "2011-03-31T12:12:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I think Belkar may have just committed a genuinely altruistic good deed. :eek: Bite your tongue! (Or Belkar will!) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1870 "2011-03-31T12:55:27Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I think Belkar may have just committed a genuinely altruistic good deed. Unless it was benefiting Mr Scruffy, I think it’s safe to assume no deed done by Belkar is altruistically good. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1871 "2011-03-31T13:18:45Z")
I wouldn’t assume anything. Belkar has been evolving over the past book. Besides, the fact that he does care about the cat proves that he is actually capable of caring about something other than himself. As the joke goes, we know what he is, now we just have to settle on a price. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1872 "2011-03-31T13:35:41Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Belkar has been evolving over the past book. I thought it was clear that the only thing that Belkar has learned is the advantages he can gain by faking personal growth. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1873 "2011-03-31T13:44:51Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I thought it was clear that the only thing that Belkar has learned is the advantages he can gain by faking personal growth. That’s what he thinks he learned. You don’t actually believe Shojo was being completely honest with him, do you? Vision or not, Lord Shojo is first and foremost a manipulative bastard. He gave him a spiel about “pretending” and “fitting in”, knowing perfectly well that Belkar’s alignment would shift along with his actions. It was a masterful bit of manipulation. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1874 "2011-03-31T13:46:16Z")
No, I think it’s more subtle than that. I think by advising him to fake personal growth, Lord Shojo is encouraging Belkar to experience real personal growth. Belkar believe he is ‘playing the game’ as Shojo put it. In reality he’s moving his alignment placement from ‘evil’ through ‘neutral’ and into ‘good’ and enjoying it because he thinks he’s getting away with something. Remember, Shojo may have been a bit of a bastard but he was a good bastard. Chaotic Good still implies ‘good’. And Shojo, given his predisposition, wouldn’t blink an eye at lying to Belkar to persuade him towards the side of good, even (or especially) if it were chaotic good. That’s clearly where Belkar is heading at this point. And that bit of Belkar’s about Shojo ‘kicking back in the Chaotic Good afterlife drinking single malt scotch and smoking cigars wrapped in poorly worded legal documents’ is still one of the all-time best lines in the entire script. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1875 "2011-03-31T13:51:23Z")
That’s pretty much what I meant - Shojo was always manipulative in the cause of Good. When I wrote “manipulative bastard”, I meant it in a good way. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1876 "2011-03-31T14:07:43Z")
What a shame then that Belkar will be irrevocably and definitively dead in (7-x) weeks… ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1877 "2011-03-31T14:30:58Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > What a shame then that Belkar will be irrevocably and definitively dead in (7-x) weeks… Of course - from a storytelling point, it makes perfect dramatic sense. That way we can feel extra sad when he dies. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1878 "2011-03-31T15:05:23Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > What a shame then that Belkar will be irrevocably and definitively dead in (7-x) weeks… Is the expectation not still an undead Belkar? What intelligent undead types are available for a non mage class? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1879 "2011-03-31T15:23:07Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > Is the expectation not still an undead Belkar? What intelligent undead types are available for a non mage class? All of them except liches and demi-liches, so ghosts, specters, vampires, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1880 "2011-03-31T15:24:37Z")
No idea - but although the undead loophole is there, it’ll be a terrible cop-out to take it. The Tragedy of Belkar achieving Goodness just before an inevitable death makes for a hell of a story, as Alessan says. Having him come back essentially unchanged 10 mins later just undoes all that fine work. Which isn’t to say Burlew might not have some way of including Belkar post-mortem. He’s a very clever storyteller. But I doubt it’ll be anything that’s been widely expected since that prediction was first made. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=93) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=95)