# Order of the Stick - Book 6 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 3, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755 "2014-03-03T16:07:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 116
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2301 "2016-01-05T00:14:42Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Sheesh, I noticed that the [last strip](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html) with Xykon & Redcloak was (c)2013. Maybe we’ll see them again before 2018. [The Giant says:](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20211651&postcount=36) \*If the only plotline that matters to you is what happens with Xykon, then yes, I would expect that the next year or two are going to be rough for you. \* ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2302 "2016-01-05T02:24:29Z")
Actually, you can’t even make a vampire out of a first-level commoner. The victim has to be at least fifth level, or you just end up with a much weaker monster called a vampire spawn (which can’t create its own spawn). It is a relevant question for a number of other spawning undead, though, such as wights. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2303 "2016-01-05T03:01:15Z")
Are you sure about that? I don’t see any reference to a minimum HD to become a vampire in the srd. The difference between a vampire and a vampire spawn is down to whether you’re killed by the vampire’s constitution drain (makes you a full vampire) or their energy drain (just a vampire spawn). ---
**Author:** ![arseNal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@arseNal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/arseNal)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2304 "2016-01-05T03:09:18Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Durkon has a powerful magical item (Malack’s staff) that allows him to speed up the process of turning people into vampires. Also, both Malack and Durkon were, in addition to being vampires, very high level characters, which makes them significantly more dangerous. A vampire who’s also a 1st level peasant isn’t nearly as hard to kill as a vampire who’s also a 15th level cleric. > > Also, the thing about vampires in general (at least in D&D) is that if the party isn’t expecting to fight vampires, they can be incredibly deadly. But if they have time to specifically prep for fighting vampires, you can completely neutralize the majority of their really deadly attacks with a couple of mid-level spells. An attempted Vampire Apocalypse would be relatively easy to defeat, once the nature of the threat was fully apprehended. I figured that with a sizable enough base of vampires, the difference between the staff’s instavamp and the normal 3-day waiting period wouldn’t matter that much. If you start with a small army working to vamp everyone around them, you’ll always have plenty of vamps coming in the pipeline. And the vamping rate will only accelerate as more time passes. As for the level, I’m not sure about how the d&d geekery works, but I would think that even if you vamp some weakling, they become significantly more powerful with just the vamp skills. Dominate will control just about any average person; very high strength; slam attack; fast healing; and it also seems, at least in OOTS world, that going mist can get them out of any fight they think they’re about to lose and and then re-appear anywhere else almost unimpeded. With high level characters supposedly quite rare in the world, there doesn’t seem like there would be any way to battle the tide and prevent the vampire takeover. The one thing I forgot about tho is that pesky business with the sun dusting them without the cleric protection spell. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2305 "2016-01-05T03:24:26Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > [The Giant says:](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20211651&postcount=36) > \*If the only plotline that matters to you is what happens with Xykon, then yes, I would expect that the next year or two are going to be rough for you. \* I do not understand his explanation. If he’s trying to make a good story for posterity, then starting a whole new episode this late in the game is only going to be seen as a flaw. Not checking in with Xykon for so long is going to seem to be a flaw–you have to have a reason why he’s not made it to the final gate through all of this (something he did beautifully when Roy was dead.) When you look at the structure of the comic as a whole, the Hel thing is rather recent, not something that has been building from the start. I’m not sure if it’s the start of Book Six (since I can’t figure out where the books divide–there’s no jump to book X on the site that I’ve found) or a subset of Book Six. But, either way, it’s well past the 2/3 point. It is a detour from the main story line. It’s already been set up that the main story line is stopping the gates from being destroyed. This is someone coming in to upset the main story line by making the gates not matter at all. The main story line is something that exists from the inciting incident. And this did not. And I’m not saying that as someone who doesn’t like the story line. But this is episodic writing. And, as episodic writing, you’ve got to avoid feeling like you’re dragging your feet. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2306 "2016-01-05T05:09:12Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > [The Giant says:](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20211651&postcount=36) > \*If the only plotline that matters to you is what happens with Xykon, then yes, I would expect that the next year or two are going to be rough for you. \* It’s not the “only plotline that matters” but I think the comic suffers for their prolonged absence. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2307 "2016-01-05T05:09:53Z")
> [@arseNal](#): > > The one thing I forgot about tho is that pesky business with the sun dusting them without the cleric protection spell. Yeah, that’s a big limit, plus they’ve got all the other traditional vampire weaknesses: can’t approach holy symbols, repelled by garlic, can’t enter a home without an invitation, can’t cross running water. Vampire-proofing a location is pretty easy to do. Also, as far as Hel’s plan goes, remember that her goal isn’t to destroy the world - that’s a means to an end. What she wants, is the souls of all the dwarves currently living on OoTs world. Overrunning the world with vampires doesn’t get her any new souls. If anything, it _costs_ her souls, as she’d have to use up millions of demon spirits to animate all those new vampires. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2308 "2016-01-05T05:44:57Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I do not understand his explanation. If he’s trying to make a good story for posterity, then starting a whole new episode this late in the game is only going to be seen as a flaw. Not checking in with Xykon for so long is going to seem to be a flaw–you have to have a reason why he’s not made it to the final gate through all of this (something he did beautifully when Roy was dead.) In terms of the story’s time frame, Xykon has only been off stage, what, a week? Maybe a month? It’s been two years for us, not for the characters in the story. When Burlew does get back around to Xykon, he could sum up everything he’s been doing in a single flashback strip. Hell, he might do it in a single word-balloon. > [@](#): > > When you look at the structure of the comic as a whole, the Hel thing is rather recent, not something that has been building from the start. I’m not sure if it’s the start of Book Six (since I can’t figure out where the books divide–there’s no jump to book X on the site that I’ve found) or a subset of Book Six. But, either way, it’s well past the 2/3 point. I can’t really agree with any of that. He seeded Durkon’s current plot line _years_ ago, when he introduced the Oracle as a character. And if you look at the overall structure of the story to date, Durkon’s basically been a gigantic hole in it. Up until now, he’d been the only member of the Order to not get a dedicated plot arc. Every other character has had a major story line that put them in the spotlight, and gave them an opportunity for major character growth, except Durkon. The necessity of at least one more major subplot before the final denouement has been obvious for some time before Durkon ever got vamped. And if you look at the structure of the comic as a whole, once it’s finished, taking Xykon off the board now and holding him in reserve until the last act is the best move Rich can make. Xykon taking Azure City is going to be a tough act to top. If Xykon had been the main antagonist for the last two books, Burlew would be in the position of having to come up with ways for Xykon to keep topping himself. By shifting the focus to two subvillains for the last two books, he can keep Xykon in his back pocket, and bust him out for maximum Holy Fuck! effect in the final volume. > [@](#): > > It is a detour from the main story line. It’s already been set up that the main story line is stopping the gates from being destroyed. This is someone coming in to upset the main story line by making the gates not matter at all. This isn’t someone coming in to make the gates not matter at all, this is someone coming in with a solution to the gate problem that’s worse than the the solution the heroes are trying to effect. If this were _Die Hard_, Hel would be those two asshole FBI guys whose solution to the hostage crisis is to shoot everyone, and hope they don’t hit too many innocent people. Hel’s plot depends directly on the gates, and is thematically important in that it shows how the existence of the gates are an existential threat to the OoTs world independent of the Snarl, because of how such powerful objects can be manipulated by other malevolent forces in the world. > [@](#): > > And I’m not saying that as someone who doesn’t like the story line. But this is episodic writing. And, as episodic writing, you’ve got to avoid feeling like you’re dragging your feet. I think Burlew’s been very successful at doing this. While updates don’t come as often as I’d like (ideally, they’d show up at ten minute intervals) I’ll defend any part of the story to date against any charge of being filler, or non-essential. Aside from the occasional gag strip, Burlew has been amazingly successful at creating a sustained, dynamic pace to his story that strikes an almost perfect balance between action and story beats, that both regularly raises the stakes, and knows when to slow down to allow the plot to catch its breath. OotS is a master-class in epic plotting. Burlew knows exactly what he’s doing right now. And fuck, it’s not like I _want_ the comic to end. Three or four more years of this quality of comic? Fuck yeah, sign me up. I’m in no hurry to get to the end, so long as the journey is this consistently entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2309 "2016-01-05T12:04:36Z")
Hear, hear, **Miller**! Yes to all of this! I’m consistently astonished by how skillfully Rich Burlew weaves his story, especially when I reread parts and catch the subtle foreshadowing. So many times I’ve been taken by surprise by things that made perfect sense in retrospect. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2310 "2016-01-05T15:45:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Miller** : > > Are you sure about that? I don’t see any reference to a minimum HD to become a vampire in the srd. The difference between a vampire and a vampire spawn is down to whether you’re killed by the vampire’s constitution drain (makes you a full vampire) or their energy drain (just a vampire spawn). From the SRD: > [@](#): > > Create Spawn (Su) > > A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a vampire’s energy drain rises as a vampire spawn 1d4 days after burial. > > If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD. Death by energy drain is always spawn. Death by Con loss is spawn if low HD, or vampire if high HD. There’s no way to turn a 4 HD victim into a full vampire. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2311 "2016-01-05T16:13:54Z")
Thanks, Miller, I wanted to post something like that, but you did it sooner, and probably better. In particular, this plot arc is critical in making it really clear what the stakes ARE in the make plot about the gates. It’s not just life&death, the afterlives themselves are at stake, too. Also, I like Durkon, and am glad he got his story arc. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2312 "2016-01-05T16:22:51Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > In particular, this plot arc is critical in making it really clear what the stakes ARE in the make plot about the gates. It’s not just life&death, the afterlives themselves are at stake, too. Meh, we already had that feeling when we were told that the Snarl ate a pantheon in thirty seconds. I’m not “against” this plot arc but I don’t suddenly feel like “Wow, now the fate of the world/universe/multiverse is at stake!”. It just feels like extra politicking. Also, this doesn’t really feel like a Durkon story arc, although that might change more as it progresses. I mean, we’ve seen a bit of his past and he’s made some remarks while bound up but right now the Real Durkon feels sort of secondary to the whole Hel plot. Durkon is my favorite of the Order (Redcloak is probably my favorite overall) so I like seeing him do stuff but right now he ain’t really doing stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2313 "2016-01-05T21:09:53Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Sheesh, I noticed that the [last strip](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html) with Xykon & Redcloak was (c)2013. Maybe we’ll see them again before 2018. Before that brief appearance, we really hadn’t seen all that much of them since V’s attack in 2009(?). ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2314 "2016-01-05T22:01:21Z")
I’m just along for the ride: no expectations other than to be entertained. Which I am. What a ride it is! ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2315 "2016-01-06T03:27:51Z")
Though a really damn slow one. (2+ weeks for this short/lame update? Seriously?) ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2316 "2016-01-06T03:45:15Z")
Maybe he’s been taking a break over Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2317 "2016-01-06T03:58:34Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Though a really damn slow one. Yet, he manages to keep everyone’s attention and interest. Brilliant, really. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2318 "2016-01-06T04:16:36Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > From the SRD: > > Death by energy drain is always spawn. Death by Con loss is spawn if low HD, or vampire if high HD. There’s no way to turn a 4 HD victim into a full vampire. Oh, I guess you’re one of those types who reads the whole stat block, and not just the first sentence! (Can’t believe I missed that. Especially given that I’ve spent the last three weekends running the players in my D&D campaign through a dungeon stocked with every vampire variant I could find.) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2319 "2016-01-06T05:13:03Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Though a really damn slow one. It’s not really that slow. Think of each story arc as a book. Burlew has written seven books in the twelve years since he started - that’s a decent speed. It just feels slow to us because we’re not used to reading a book one page at a time. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2320 "2016-01-06T10:20:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s not really that slow. Think of each story arc as a book. Burlew has written seven books in the twelve years since he started - that’s a decent speed. It just feels slow to us because we’re not used to reading a book one page at a time. And it’s faster than some other authors out there (I’m looking at _you_, George R.R. Martin). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=115) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=117)