# Order of the Stick - Book 6 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 3, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755 "2014-03-03T16:07:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/241 "2014-05-23T20:54:15Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > So is Neutral Neutral basically “will perform acts of law or chaos, good or evil as suits their need?” More like a “don’t care.” Julia Greenhilt comes to mind, as she seems to just do whatever she wants without regard to ethos or alignment. > > And True Neutral more like “will perform actions so as to actively seek a balance between law and chaos and good and evil?” This makes me think of John Constantine, who I believe exerted effort to prevent either Heaven or Hell from getting an advantage over the other. That’s a pretty good summary. Basically only druids are True Neutral, and they’re all about maintaining balance and the natural order of things. Most peasant are just plain Neutral, because they could give a damn as long as they have food on the table at the end of the day. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/242 "2014-05-23T21:47:34Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > An when has Shojo ever told the truth? You’re treating him as if he’s the Word of Wisdom, when in fact, it a well-established fact that he’s the Word of Bullshit. > > Look at it this way - wouldn’t it be right in character for the world’s greatest Good con artist to \*trick \*an Evil person into changing alignment? That’s assuming Belkar had that conversation with Shojo. It may have been some remnant of Shojo, it may have been some other entity appearing as Shojo, or it may have been Belkar talking to himself. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/243 "2014-05-23T22:00:04Z")
> [@blue\_infinity](#): > > Holy Word affects non-good characters. The flying kobold guy - can’t remember the name - is a Neutral. Haley is Chaotic Neutral though (isn’t she?) and it didn’t affect her. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/244 "2014-05-23T22:24:26Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Haley is Chaotic Neutral though (isn’t she?) and it didn’t affect her. Chaotic Good. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/245 "2014-05-23T22:58:51Z")
I thought Elan was CG and Haley CN but it wouldn’t be the first time I was wrong about anything. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/246 "2014-05-23T22:59:53Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > I wonder what would (will) happen if Belkar ended up in the Chaotic Good afterlife? Could he get kicked out for unruly behavior? 😉 Too chaotic for Chaos? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/247 "2014-05-23T23:05:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’ve never seen a distinction between “True Neutral” and “Neutral Neutral” before. What’s the difference, and where is it described? > [@jayjay](#): > > True Neutral is all about maintaining the balance (the old Planescape Rilmani (the Outland equivalent of fiends and celestials) were this). Neutral Neutral is basically the kind of neutral that the MM entries for plain old animals usually meant when they were “neutral”…it’s kind of a null alignment. > > I don’t know that it was ever official, but it was always how I considered it, since animals obviously didn’t really HAVE an alignment, not having the equipment to moralize about their actions, usually. [TVTropes:](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterAlignment) > [@](#): > > **TRUE NEUTRAL:** Sometimes known as just _Neutral,_ or even _Neutral Neutral._ Comes in two flavors: Keeping the Balance and Just Doesn’t Care. Druids are canonically the former sort, on the same side as the animals. The balance-happy sort may sometimes be characters just too dumb to know the difference, but may also be a Wild Card. It’s not uncommon to see True Neutral monks, for instance; not to mention ordinary folks who just want to be left alone. Most Punch Clock Villains fit under this alignment. Your average citizen of Libria (in _Equilibrium_) is an example of the “Just Doesn’t Care” version of neutrality, without necessarily being _stupid_ — the government would probably be Lawful Evil. Druids in D&D were required to be True Neutral until the 3rd Edition of the game, and even then had to maintain “some of nature’s neutrality”. Mordenkainen, from the \*Dungeons & Dragons Greyhawk \*setting, a very powerful wizard who actively tries to keep any major power from getting the upper hand, is an example of the “Balance Keeping” version. Animals, meanwhile, are considered to lack any sort of moral capacity; since moral judgments can’t be placed on them, they are canonically True Neutral in Dungeons & Dragons. Rilmani, metallic-skinned humanoids from the Outlands, are the True Neutral archetype, maintaining the balance between all the other planes. If True Neutrals include the kind with a head for things, then they most likely typically do not care for idealist virtues and/or politics. Intelligent true neutrals are quite logical in how they go about things, including morals. Employers fire and hire employees in equal measure, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/248 "2014-05-23T23:07:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Chaotic Good. -ish. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/249 "2014-05-23T23:12:15Z")
Believe it or not, I didn’t even know that entry existed over there. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/250 "2014-05-23T23:19:11Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > True Neutral is all about maintaining the balance (the old Planescape Rilmani (the Outland equivalent of fiends and celestials) were this). Neutral Neutral is basically the kind of neutral that the MM entries for plain old animals usually meant when they were “neutral”…it’s kind of a null alignment. > > I don’t know that it was ever official, but it was always how I considered it, since animals obviously didn’t really HAVE an alignment, not having the equipment to moralize about their actions, usually. But alignments aren’t absolute, they’re sliding scales. Sometimes, a Neutral person is simply someone who isn’t quite good and isn’t quite evil, isn’t quite lawful and isn’t quite chaotic. Sometimes they’re all of these things, and sometimes they’re none. They’re… complicated. Maybe they want to be good, but can’t quite make it, or maybe they think they’re evil, but actually have some unexpected empathy. Some of the most complex, interesting characters are True Neutral be default, if only because they can’t be pinned down anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/251 "2014-05-24T00:12:33Z")
BTW, what’s the average time-interval between strips lately? How often does Burlew update? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/252 "2014-05-24T00:54:46Z")
## Burlew’s twitter feed: [https://twitter.com/RichBurlew](https://twitter.com/RichBurlew) New comics on: May 19 May 5 Apr 24 Apr 17 Apr 7 Mar 31 Feb 18 Shortest: 7 days Longest: 14 days ## Rich’s twitter Commentary: May12: “I’m not gonna do an update until I achieve at least a minimum set of goals, which I’ve been failing to do. I didn’t get one single word written on KS stuff over break, not one picture drawn. Everything else ate the time. Bare minimum, I still have a stack of crayon drawings done that I need to box up and ship. Maybe I’ll update after those go out.” He probably shoulda given himself another month… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/253 "2014-05-24T04:38:02Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But alignments aren’t absolute, they’re sliding scales. Sometimes, a Neutral person is simply someone who isn’t quite good and isn’t quite evil, isn’t quite lawful and isn’t quite chaotic. Sometimes they’re all of these things, and sometimes they’re none. They’re… complicated. Maybe they want to be good, but can’t quite make it, or maybe they think they’re evil, but actually have some unexpected empathy. Some of the most complex, interesting characters are True Neutral be default, if only because they can’t be pinned down anywhere else. Realistically, it probably isn’t a major issue for most of the beings in a fantasy setting just as it generally isn’t for people in real life. Most people don’t confront opportunities for serious good or evil. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/254 "2014-05-24T06:23:40Z")
Was Belkar’s epiphany a matter of actual communication with the ghost of Shojo, or was it his brain, processing what he had been observing all along since joining the Order? I’m inclined to think it was the latter. His conscious mind just couldn’t deal with the punishment the Mark of Justice was dishing out to his body, so it checked out for a bit. This enabled his superego to get a word in edgewise, which it did, using an avatar of Shojo, the character who had made the strongest impression on him. The id, of course, had been shouted down, on account of being responsible for getting him into this mess in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/255 "2014-05-24T08:42:23Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Was Belkar’s epiphany a matter of actual communication with the ghost of Shojo, or was it his brain, processing what he had been observing all along since joining the Order? > > I’m inclined to think it was the latter. His conscious mind just couldn’t deal with the punishment the Mark of Justice was dishing out to his body, so it checked out for a bit. This enabled his superego to get a word in edgewise, which it did, using an avatar of Shojo, the character who had made the strongest impression on him. The id, of course, had been shouted down, on account of being responsible for getting him into this mess in the first place. Roy once said that Belkar was “clever in his own brain damaged way”. So, yes, Belkar was probably aware at some level that his over-the-top evil ways were not in his own best interests. But he’d refuse on principle to step back from them - he’d see that as selling out to popular opinion. So his subconscious figured out a way to con his conscious mind - he convinced himself he was screwing over people by playing nice. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/256 "2014-05-24T12:21:46Z")
> [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](#): > > Also, somewhat off topic, shouldn’t there be a “Word of ‘Meh’” spell that neutral clerics can cast in place of Holy Word/Blasphemy and which will whammy good and evil alike? No, there shouldn’t. If you want a spell that targets Good creatures, you’re 100% Evil, no excuses. Also, Holy Word should only hit Evil creatures, not non-Good. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/257 "2014-05-24T18:07:35Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > There’s the rub: he was told by Shojo to fake it, but has he stopped faking and started being? Only time will tell. Well, Rich said in the book commentary for **Don’t Split the Party** that Belkar is experiencing real character growth thanks to his bond with Mr. Scruffy, and as we’ve seen, that has only been getting stronger (to the point where now he’s [saving the lives of people he doesn’t like](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0784.html) because he [sees himself and Mr. Scruffy in them](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html)) in the last book. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/258 "2014-05-24T18:09:55Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > So is Neutral Neutral basically “will perform acts of law or chaos, good or evil as suits their need?” More like a “don’t care.” Julia Greenhilt comes to mind, as she seems to just do whatever she wants without regard to ethos or alignment. Which is funny, because she specifically described herself as True Neutral in [this strip](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0343.html). (“I’m True Neutral. I go both ways.” “That is **so** hot.”) ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/259 "2014-05-24T18:13:19Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > No, there shouldn’t. If you want a spell that targets Good creatures, you’re 100% Evil, no excuses. Also, Holy Word should only hit Evil creatures, not non-Good. I don’t think so … people with Good alignment sometimes go off the rails and attack you even if you’re also Good (exhibit A: [Miko Miyazaki](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)), so it seems like it would be nice to have a versatile spell for cases like that, even if you’re not 100% Evil. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/260 "2014-05-24T20:39:31Z")
Miko was like 90% Lawful and only 10% Good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=14)