# Order of the Stick - Book 6 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 3, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755 "2014-03-03T16:07:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 140
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2781 "2016-06-18T12:14:03Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yeah, but kinda irrelevant. There is no systematic way of eliminating every possible location except checking out all of them. The order in which they do so is irrelevant, as long as they keep track of which ones they’ve tried–as they do by putting an X on the door. And they apparently need all of them and be highly buffed to survive the encounters within, so they can’t split up. > > It actually kinda disappointed me that Redcloak didn’t know this. Even if it doesn’t care about it, the world does run on math–their world even more so. But this is entirely irrelevant in this case. Actually, that’s where Xykon being a Sorcerer bites them in the arse - had he been a Wizard he could have prepped dozens of castings of Arcane Eye and mapped the whole thing in a week. (For those who don’t play D&D, Arcane Eye is a floating, discorporated, invisible eye that zooms about pretty fast, is hard to notice even for people who can see through invisibility and acts like a remote camera. It’s a great utility spell, but not essential enough for Sorcerers to pick…) ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2782 "2016-06-18T12:17:39Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > Where? Not saying you’re wrong but I went back, had a longer look, and can’t see one. Third row up from the bottom, third door from the left. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Shine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr_shine/32/464_2.png) [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2783 "2016-06-18T12:36:40Z")
To my mind the cross is very clearly on the right, even if the tail slightly encroaches into the left. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2784 "2016-06-18T14:02:35Z")
Yeah, I don’t see how a systematic search could be an improvement, either. If the world really does run on mathematics, then any search order should be equally good, so long as they keep track of the failures (which they are doing). And if the world runs on narrativium and/or quantifiable luck (both of which are known to be present in D&D), then picking at random is better. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2785 "2016-06-18T15:40:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Yeah, I don’t see how a systematic search could be an improvement, either. If the world really does run on mathematics, then any search order should be equally good, so long as they keep track of the failures (which they are doing). And if the world runs on narrativium and/or quantifiable luck (both of which are known to be present in D&D), then picking at random is better. Which is why if they just keep picking doors at random, they will keep doing so until their opponents arrive for a climatic battle. What they need is somebody like Tarquin, who could reframe the narrative and come up with a plot-based reason why they would find the gate before the heroes arrive. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2786 "2016-06-18T15:45:34Z")
Realistically, you have to wonder why Xykon doesn’t just order the bugbears to divide up and each open a door while he observes the results. Sure, the bugbears would all be killed but Xykon has repeatedly demonstrated his willingness to send his minions off to die. ---
**Author:** ![Aestivalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Aestivalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aestivalis)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2787 "2016-06-18T16:08:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Realistically, you have to wonder why Xykon doesn’t just order the bugbears to divide up and each open a door while he observes the results. Sure, the bugbears would all be killed but Xykon has repeatedly demonstrated his willingness to send his minions off to die. It’s not the door, it’s the dungeon behind it, I assume. They need to be super buffed just to get to the end of each tunnel to confirm that it is or isn’t the one leading to the gate, right? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2788 "2016-06-18T17:14:35Z")
> [@Aestivalis](#): > > It’s not the door, it’s the dungeon behind it, I assume. They need to be super buffed just to get to the end of each tunnel to confirm that it is or isn’t the one leading to the gate, right? That’s probably true. But when has Xykon cared about the facts? He’d send all the bugbears off to their deaths on the off-chance that he might find out something useful. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2789 "2016-06-18T17:18:32Z")
Redcloak doesn’t stand for that behavior anymore. He’d figure out a way to keep Xykon from doing that and manipulate Xykon into thinking it was his own idea not to send the bugbears in. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2790 "2016-06-18T17:19:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That’s probably true. But when has Xykon cared about the facts? He’d send all the bugbears off to their deaths on the off-chance that he might find out something useful. Since when has Xykon cared about finding things out? He has people to do that for him. The simplest explanation for why Xykon doesn’t do any particular course of action is that he finds it boring. Watching a bunch of bugbears go into doors and not come out again? Boring. Figure something else out, eyepatch. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2791 "2016-06-19T00:06:14Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yeah, but kinda irrelevant. There is no systematic way of eliminating every possible location except checking out all of them. The order in which they do so is irrelevant, as long as they keep track of which ones they’ve tried–as they do by putting an X on the door. I dunno. If they are operating in conventional 3D space, then the way the passage ways loop should tell you something about better and worse search doors. Making a map of the place as you go along might permit you to rule out certain doors. Or circle back and X them off. The mapping process might also clue you in to the possibility that the cliff of doors is just a feint. I think Redcloak has the right idea: study a problem long enough and eventually it will yield. But such a stance has no answer to Xykon’s insecurities and math anxiety. Even if there are spacial warps in the mountain, I suspect those could be studied, mapped and mined for hints about best search routines. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2792 "2016-06-19T00:38:10Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Since when has Xykon cared about finding things out? He has people to do that for him. The simplest explanation for why Xykon doesn’t do any particular course of action is that he finds it boring. Watching a bunch of bugbears go into doors and not come out again? Boring. Figure something else out, eyepatch. The weird thing is, Xykon’s fingers don’t look at all short. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2793 "2016-06-19T01:41:35Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I dunno. If they are operating in conventional 3D space, then the way the passage ways loop should tell you something about better and worse search doors. I think this is too complicated. Redcloak is lawful evil. He likes order in how he does things. When things are random, it makes him itch. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2794 "2016-06-19T04:04:03Z")
> [@Uniqueorn](#): > > One of the doors actually has 2 Xs on it. I wonder what the story is behind that? My guess would be the MitD getting too enthusiastic about X-ing doors. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2795 "2016-06-19T04:21:42Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Since when has Xykon cared about finding things out? He has people to do that for him. The simplest explanation for why Xykon doesn’t do any particular course of action is that he finds it boring. Watching a bunch of bugbears go into doors and not come out again? Boring. Figure something else out, eyepatch. He cares when it comes to the location of the last Gate. This is something he wants to know. As for boring, we know Xykon lacks patience. Which is exactly why he’d send in the bugbears. It’d be the possibility with the highest body count but it’s also the only possibility that has the potential of finding the Gate quickly. So Xykon would sacrifice the entire bugbear population first on the slight chance if might accomplish his goals. If it failed - which it probably would - and all the bugbears were dead then he’d try the slower course of checking all the doors one by one himself. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2796 "2016-06-19T04:37:37Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Right, but typical boots have rounded ends ; whereas Redcloak’s ones seem to have individual toes. Redcloak’s boots have individual toes because goblins have individual toes. Look at [comic #11](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html). Notice that Elan, Vaarsuvius and, Durkon’s feet are all single lines, but the goblin’s feet are tripartite. Presumably boots designed for goblins are shaped differently than boots designed for humans, elves and dwarves because their feet are shaped differently. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2797 "2016-06-19T18:22:08Z")
But Elan, Vaarsuvius, and Durkon’s feet all look different from Belkar’s, too. Most civilized races (other than halflings) wear shoes regularly, and so the single line just represented a shoe. But halflings and the savage races regularly go barefoot, and so we see their actual feet. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2798 "2016-06-19T21:24:12Z")
I don’t see what good sending in the bugbears would do. They already hunt in the caves as deep as they can go and don’t know about the Gate. Sending them in deeper would just result in zero bugbears coming back out judging by the condition Team Evil returned in. What are a bunch of 3HD bugbears going to do against foes that rough up an epic level sorcerer lich and one of the highest level clerics in Stickworld? Keeping them alive at least gives you scouts and a small army to throw against annoying paladins or heroes. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2799 "2016-06-19T21:52:20Z")
Plus it doesn’t really sound like these bugbears are as tractable as the goblins & hobs. ---
**Author:** ![satogata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@satogata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/satogata)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2800 "2016-06-21T19:48:55Z")
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