# Order of the Stick - Book 6 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 3, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755 "2014-03-03T16:07:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 148
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2016, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2941 "2016-08-09T10:41:00Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > It’s like the OotSverse version of the Sorting Hat. > > ETA that at the rate Eugene is going Roy won’t have to worry about bumping into him in the afterlife, because I’m pretty sure casual indifference to - or active encouragement of - genocide/omnicide has got to put a sizable dent in one’s Lawful Good credentials. I could have sworn we were told that behavior after death didn’t count, but that might have been from something else. If it does, then, yeah–Eugene’s willingness to let everyone die for his own expedience would also send him elsewhere. Though maybe it’d be mitigated stopping for due to the dwarves. Imagine how much easier D&D games would be if the Good characters could just say "No point is saving them–they’ll go to heaven anyways. Hell, imagine Christian police officers not saving fellow Christians in the real world! (They are sure that the afterlife exists.) ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2016, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2942 "2016-08-09T11:45:49Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > ETA that at the rate Eugene is going Roy won’t have to worry about bumping into him in the afterlife, because I’m pretty sure casual indifference to - or active encouragement of - genocide/omnicide has got to put a sizable dent in one’s Lawful Good credentials. Eugene wasn’t LG while alive. There’s strips showing that he couldn’t stick to one thing and see it through. He was always after the new shiny thing. Two cases in point; (i)Eugene abandoned the quest to destroy Xykon, and (ii) Eugene and his wife drifted apart. Nope, Eugene is, at best, CG. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2016, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2943 "2016-08-09T11:53:38Z")
> [@MHaye](#): > > Eugene wasn’t LG while alive. > > There’s strips showing that he couldn’t stick to one thing and see it through. He was always after the new shiny thing. Two cases in point; (i)Eugene abandoned the quest to destroy Xykon, and (ii) Eugene and his wife drifted apart. > > Nope, Eugene is, at best, CG. Then why 1) is he loitering outside the gate to the LG afterlife and 2) did Roy need to ask him to stay away from Roy’s mother if they were going to be in separate afterlives anyway? I’m inclined to think that Eugene was LG in principle but in practice was one of those LG characters who followed the letter of the law(ful goodness) but not the spirit, somewhat like Miko or Roy’s first adventuring group. OTOH Julia is True Neutral so that may suggest that alignment choices within the family are broader than one might initially think. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2016, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2944 "2016-08-09T13:05:15Z")
I thought that Eugene had already been judged for his actions in life and was simply waiting for the BOoV to be satisfied so he could get past the velvet rope. He only freaked out when the diva told Roy he could go in, not when the diva insisted on judging him even though he was due for a resurrection. I don’t remember it being explicitly stated whether Eugene’s actions from the afterlife could affect his judgment, but I doubt that he would be unaware of that fact and knowingly do things to get himself kicked out of the LG afterlife. Also, I liked how he relented when Roy reminded him that the dwarves were screwed if the world gets destroyed. Eugene is a selfish asshole, but even he has limits. I like the upthread idea that he’s meant to be a textbook LG character played within the letter of his alignment, but still acts like a jerk when he can. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Much as I hate to side with the guy, Jerkass Greenhilt kinda has a point there. What’s the sense of working so very hard at saving the world, in a world where it is known \*for a fact \*that death is far from the end and “the world” is a tiny part of a much larger cosmogony ? > So everybody dies. Big deal, they’ll be snarking at their personal lantern Archon (or alignment equivalent) and be in the company of their loved ones in no time at all. Or feuding with their hated ones, or plotting their eventual rise to power forever if that’s what their alignment dictates - the details matter little, the point is that while life doesn’t go on identity and consciousness do. So… who cares about a little omnicide, really ? When it all comes down to it, push comes to shove, inna final analysis and all that ? About a year ago, when Hel’s plot was revealed, Rich mentioned that spirits in the afterlife eventually return to the essence of the plane they inhabit. So the afterlife isn’t eternal, just a really long time. He said that this was a necessary break from traditional D&D lore to add proper stakes to the gods’ plan to destroy the world and start over. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2016, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2945 "2016-08-09T13:07:59Z")
Yeah, the only thing keeping Eugene from entering the pearly gates is his unfulfilled blood oath. Once that’s wrapped up, he’s going up the mountain like the rest of the Lawful Good people do. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2016, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2946 "2016-08-09T13:42:30Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Yeah, the only thing keeping Eugene from entering the pearly gates is his unfulfilled blood oath. Once that’s wrapped up, he’s going up the mountain like the rest of the Lawful Good people do. …we assume. And he assumes. Like he assumed that Roy wouldn’t be able to get in. I don’t think it’s been explicitly said one way or the other, and narratively it would be more…interesting…if he discovered that his current behavior is also going on his permanent record. Roy’s also been “judged” for his actions thus far, and presumably the next time around he’ll get judged again on the new material, so there’s no reason why the same couldn’t be true of Eugene even if he’s still dead. And the deva was pretty mad about the whole “impersonating an divine entity” thing. But only Rich knows how he’ll play it when the time comes. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2016, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2947 "2016-08-09T13:54:44Z")
Yeah, Eugene has been shown to have quite a lot of influence from beyond the grave. Wouldn’t surprise me if he gets booted to the CG or NG pile when this is all over. ---
**Author:** ![Garula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@Garula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garula)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2948 "2016-08-09T15:57:00Z")
So, suppose actions after death really don’t count and Eugene can be as much of a selfish dick as he wants and not get kicked down to a lower plane. Hypothetically, if he were forcefully resurrected and killed could he then be judged again based on his actions while dead earlier, or would only his actions while “alive” count? Regardless, I was glad to see that even he has his limits re: the dwarves. If it weren’t for their fate he would have a pretty good point. And I have to admit, getting all the dwarves to die honorable deaths as soon as possible would be the safest option for their ridiculous religion. Really, if I were a dwarf I would pick up an axe and charge the nearest forest rather than take the chance of surviving to old age and dying a peaceful death. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2016, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2949 "2016-08-09T16:23:55Z")
While I’m picking on Eugene: if he’s accountable for his posthumous actions, [this little piece of arson](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html) (last panel) will definitely not look good on his record. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2950 "2016-08-09T16:46:26Z")
I take back what I said before. [Eugene says](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html) that the clouds are a “coexistant demiplane” for all the Good aligned final destinations. So it seems plausible that he’d be allowed to kick around even if (unknown to him) he was ultimately destined for a NG or CG afterlife. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2951 "2016-08-09T16:51:04Z")
[Roy’s reviewer](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html) said that people are only judged according to what they’re capable of doing. Eugene tried to be lawful good within the limitations of his own narrow-mindedness. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2016, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2952 "2016-08-09T17:37:23Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Then why 1) is he loitering outside the gate to the LG afterlife and 2) did Roy need to ask him to stay away from Roy’s mother if they were going to be in separate afterlives anyway? Because neither Roy nor his father invested skill points in Knowledge (Religion) or Knowledge (The Planes). Eugene’s actions in the afterlife are not LG, and this reflects his actions (as we know them) while alive. He _didn’t_ keep his word and he _didn’t_ complete tasks - not the blood oath, nor raising his children. He may well believe he’s LG, but he doesn’t strike me as having been played to his nominal alignment. Being stuck outside the gate to the LG afterlife could be a reflection of the fact that Eugene was judged NG or CG, but refuses to accept that judgement, and is hanging around where he thinks he should be rather than listening to the authorities. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2953 "2016-08-09T18:23:25Z")
In SoD, Eugene was wrong about whether the BOoV would follow him into the afterlife. Well first he tried to pretend he’d fulfilled it, and then got upset about it keeping him out. His knowledge and memory of the oath is less than perfect. So I’m wondering if what he says about what happens if someone other than his descendants finishes off Xykon. He implies that’ll be enough to let him in the afterlife, whichever one he goes to. But if you read the text of the actual oath (also in SoD), that won’t happen. Here’s the oath (minus various intrusions): > [@](#): > > I, Eugene Greenhilt, swear on the blood that flows from my wounds this day that I shall not rest, in this life or any other, until I or my heirs have enacted horrible vengeance on those that have slighted me, named here as Xykon the sorcerer. If you take that literally, if Xykon is destroyed by the gods along with the rest of the world, he’s going to be stuck in limbo forever. Also note that it only keeps him out of the afterlife, not his heirs. Which was why Roy could enter while he couldn’t. Eugene was wrong about that, too. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2016, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2954 "2016-08-09T19:02:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > [Roy’s reviewer](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html) said that people are only judged according to what they’re capable of doing. Eugene tried to be lawful good within the limitations of his own narrow-mindedness. Seems a bit lenient, don’t it ? By that scale Belkar oughta go through the pearly gates too, because a coupla times he thought about \*\*not \*\*hurting some people within the limitations of his own semi-retarded omnicidal bloodlust 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2016, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2955 "2016-08-09T23:29:31Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > IIf you take that literally, if Xykon is destroyed by the gods along with the rest of the world, he’s going to be stuck in limbo forever. That’s what I said above, but I realize now there is a possible solution: we saw those people Plane Shift and have to be fought off when Roy was on the mountain. So someone could “kill” Xykon after he’s dead–at least, assuming the undead get afterlives. Not a likely solution, mind you. Much harder than anything else, and the heirs have less reason to do it, including the whole detachment from earthly desires that would eventually kick in. And that’s assuming dead people even have that much autonomy. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2016, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2956 "2016-08-09T23:39:03Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > If you take that literally, if Xykon is destroyed by the gods along with the rest of the world, he’s going to be stuck in limbo forever. Well if the world is destroyed Xykon will be as well obviously, and won’t we able to reach his goal of supreme power. Which all would be the result of Roy’s actions(skipping the detail where it would be an unintentional miserable failure on Roy’s part) ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2957 "2016-08-10T10:24:42Z")
Here we have Roy putting the needs of the many over the needs of the one. That’s definitely Good. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2958 "2016-08-10T11:37:33Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > That’s what I said above, but I realize now there is a possible solution: we saw those people Plane Shift and have to be fought off when Roy was on the mountain. So someone could “kill” Xykon after he’s dead–at least, assuming the undead get afterlives. > > Not a likely solution, mind you. Much harder than anything else, and the heirs have less reason to do it, including the whole detachment from earthly desires that would eventually kick in. > > And that’s assuming dead people even have that much autonomy. The plane-shifters were live people, popping in for a cross-dimensional jaunt. Not sure dead people can afterlife-hop quite so easily, as you say. And I agree with **MHaye** ’s point: Eugene can’t be relied on to know the rules of how the afterlife works and has a history of making incorrect assumptions. I do think he’s hanging around because of the BOoV but I maintain that he’s likely to be surprised when his number finally comes up. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2959 "2016-08-10T11:45:53Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Here we have Roy putting the needs of the many over the needs of the one. That’s definitely Good. I’d say more that that’s definitely lawful. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/2960 "2016-08-10T16:24:17Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > And I agree with **MHaye** ’s point: Eugene can’t be relied on to know the rules of how the afterlife works and has a history of making incorrect assumptions. I do think he’s hanging around because of the BOoV but I maintain that he’s likely to be surprised when his number finally comes up. His ego is indeed a recurring trait. He constantly think he knows everything, and is frankly prejudiced against an entire class. He has a lot of Vaarsuvius’s old wizard pride in him. But he’s not learned that said pride caused his own fall. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=147) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=149)