# Order of the Stick - Book 6 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 3, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755 "2014-03-03T16:07:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/381 "2014-07-05T19:10:18Z")
Not too low-level - too light! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/382 "2014-07-05T19:37:46Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > So, how does Durkon explain this one? The obvious explanation will be that Roy will just ignore what Belkar is telling him. Roy has a history of ignoring evidence when it disputes something he’s already decided is true. But Burlew might be planning on confounding this expectation. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/383 "2014-07-05T19:41:05Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But Burlew might be planning on confounding this expectation. That really should be standard boilerplate in any discussion of OOTS plotting. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/384 "2014-07-05T19:44:23Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > So, how does Durkon explain this one? > > And would Belkar have survived the drop, like Tarquin? Or is he too low-level? Falling damage is 1d6 per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6. Rangers get a d8 per hit die, barbarians a d12, plus a con bonus, so going strictly by the rules, odds are pretty good that Belkar (who’s likely ~15th level) would survive the drop. But most GMs house rule that if you take more than 20d6 falling damage, you’re dead no matter how many hp you have. Drukon will probably demonstrate that he had a spell standing by to save Belkar, and that he was just doing it to teach the halfling a lesson. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/385 "2014-07-05T19:54:12Z")
Belkar is a pretty dim bulb: his speech was basically 100% projection. Now he happens to be spot on. But the exterior evidence isn’t definitive and Belkar’s argument isn’t compelling: it’s just a hunch based on his own personal experience. Confounded expectations aside, Roy will dismiss Belkar’s concerns. What he _should_ do is not accept them but rather contemplate the occasional accuracy of broken clocks. A fleshed out scenario contains information content, whether or not it applies. Even idiots can have insight and it’s clear that Belkar is a little smarter than that. I still say that Thor’s thunderstorm should still be a billboard sized tip off, though such concerns might be shunted aside while putting out engine fires. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/386 "2014-07-05T21:44:33Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > And would Belkar have survived the drop, like Tarquin? Or is he too low-level? > [@Miller](#): > > Falling damage is 1d6 per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6. Rangers get a d8 per hit die, barbarians a d12, plus a con bonus, so going strictly by the rules, odds are pretty good that Belkar (who’s likely ~15th level) would survive the drop. But most GMs house rule that if you take more than 20d6 falling damage, you’re dead no matter how many hp you have. They’re still above the ocean, aren’t they? Realistically, if he survived the fall, he’d plunge deep underwater, get caught in an undercurrent, and never reach the surface. Are there any rules for that? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2014, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/387 "2014-07-05T23:03:49Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > They’re still above the ocean, aren’t they? Realistically, if he survived the fall, he’d plunge deep underwater, get caught in an undercurrent, and never reach the surface. Are there any rules for that? I thought undertows were a shoreline phenomenon. Narrative-wise, the water would cushion his fall (not IRL), the splash would spray the Zeppelin, a shark would attack, a shark would be defeated, and Belkar would be saved from the clutches of a giant squid by a serendipitous grappling hook dangled from the Machina. Just in the nick of time! ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/388 "2014-07-05T23:32:23Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I thought undertows were a shoreline phenomenon. You could be right, I wouldn’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2014, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/389 "2014-07-05T23:53:21Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Drukon will probably demonstrate that he had a spell standing by to save Belkar, and that he was just doing it to teach the halfling a lesson. _Raise Dead_? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/390 "2014-07-06T00:26:01Z")
Something I just noticed re-reading old strips. Roy has considered the possibility that Durkon is not really Durkon ([910](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html)). But he figured that even if somebody else is controlling Durkon it would be acceptable to go along with it until they get some place where they can resurrect the real Durkon. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/391 "2014-07-06T07:06:22Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Man, Belkar better work on his Will saves if he’s ever going to make it in the vampire hunting business. He’s 0-2 so far. That’s D&D’s rock/paper/scissors in a nutshell. Due to a combination of prioritized stats and class mechanics Fighter types fail at Will saves forever, Wizards and Rogues suck donkey balls at Fortitude, and Priests typically only get screwed through Reflex. That being said, Belkar would get a little buff to Will when raging. Which would really help if he didn’t have [a Wisdom score normally reserved for lemmings](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html). ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/392 "2014-07-06T10:01:03Z")
Nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/393 "2014-07-06T16:33:39Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That’s D&D’s rock/paper/scissors in a nutshell. Due to a combination of prioritized stats and class mechanics Fighter types fail at Will saves forever, Wizards and Rogues suck donkey balls at Fortitude, and Priests typically only get screwed through Reflex. > > That being said, Belkar would get a little buff to Will when raging. Which would really help if he didn’t have [a Wisdom score normally reserved for lemmings](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html). Too bad [Owl’s Wisdom](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/owlsWisdom.htm) can’t be affected by [Permanency](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm). Although reading the description for permanency, I’m surprised all 10th level wizards aren’t walking around with permanent Comprehend Languages, Darkvision, Detect/Read Magic, and See Invisible. Why not? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/394 "2014-07-06T16:36:35Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That’s D&D’s rock/paper/scissors in a nutshell. Due to a combination of prioritized stats and class mechanics Fighter types fail at Will saves forever, Wizards and Rogues suck donkey balls at Fortitude, and Priests typically only get screwed through Reflex. > > That being said, Belkar would get a little buff to Will when raging. Which would really help if he didn’t have [a Wisdom score normally reserved for lemmings](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html). The flip side is that a vampire’s dominate ability is based off its charisma stat. Its Cha goes up by 4, but Durkon still isn’t oozing charisma. Durkula dominating Belkar is the opposite of an irresistible force meeting an immovable object; it’s sort of like how the slightest breeze can blow away dandelion fluff. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/395 "2014-07-06T17:11:00Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Belkar is a pretty dim bulb . . . Indeed he is, because what did he think confronting Vampire-Durkon with his suspicions would accomplish? Better to lull him into thinking he’s dropped those suspicions, while hunting for evidence that would convince Roy. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/396 "2014-07-06T17:14:54Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Too bad [Owl’s Wisdom](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/owlsWisdom.htm) can’t be affected by [Permanency](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm). > > Although reading the description for permanency, I’m surprised all 10th level wizards aren’t walking around with permanent Comprehend Languages, Darkvision, Detect/Read Magic, and See Invisible. Why not? The 3500 XP cost is a bit of a bummer. That’s about a third of what you’d need to get to 11th. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/397 "2014-07-06T18:01:52Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Too bad [Owl’s Wisdom](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/owlsWisdom.htm) can’t be affected by [Permanency](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm). > > Although reading the description for permanency, I’m surprised all 10th level wizards aren’t walking around with permanent Comprehend Languages, Darkvision, Detect/Read Magic, and See Invisible. Why not? Many do. But in magic items, not as permanent spells; the XP cost seems a lot but it’s an artefact of the way XP is allocated in 3e that it pays to be a level or two behind. The problem with a Permanent spell is that it can be Dispelled or Disjoined (at those levels, it’s a very sensible BBEG who leads off with a Disjunction, or preferably gets a minion to use a device containing the spell). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/398 "2014-07-06T19:12:08Z")
Disjunction will wipe out items and spells alike, but it’s a ninth-level spell, and one that often makes it onto the implicit mutually-assured-destruction list between DMs and players. Dispel Magic (and its higher-level cousins) can also affect magic items, but only for a few rounds, so it’s only an inconvenience instead of a tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/399 "2014-07-06T19:56:42Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > (at those levels, it’s a very sensible BBEG who leads off with a Disjunction, or preferably gets a minion to use a device containing the spell). If you did that as DM, I would quit then and there. A good DM recognises that the goal of Dungeons and Dragons is not to win at any cost, and a DM who tries to win with a spell that wastes the next half hour as everyone rewrites their character sheets, whose most significant effects are entirely one-sided (since NPCs don’t have to worry about the long term) is not a good DM. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/400 "2014-07-06T20:06:09Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Disjunction will wipe out items and spells alike, but it’s a ninth-level spell, and one that often makes it onto the implicit mutually-assured-destruction list between DMs and players. Not mine. It helped prevent the ‘Christmas Tree’ effect and promoted churn. > [@](#): > > Dispel Magic (and its higher-level cousins) can also affect magic items, but only for a few rounds, so it’s only an inconvenience instead of a tragedy. A targeted Dispel Magic will remove a permanent spell. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=21)