# Order of the Stick - Book 6 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 3, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755 "2014-03-03T16:07:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 201
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4002 "2017-12-08T03:19:16Z")
Even when the tables made no sense. Like, I once saw a scan from an old sourcebook of “random prostitutes”, with entries like “High-society courtesan” and “Gutter strumpet”. OK, an encounter with a randomly-determined NPC makes some sense, but in what context would you ever find yourself where a gutter strumpet and a courtesan were equally likely? It’d make much more sense to have a slums encounter table that included the strumpet, a beggar, and a pickpocket, and a high society encounter table that included the courtesan, a jester, and a deep-in-debt noble. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4003 "2017-12-08T03:58:31Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Even when the tables made no sense. Like, I once saw a scan from an old sourcebook of “random prostitutes”, with entries like “High-society courtesan” and “Gutter strumpet”. OK, an encounter with a randomly-determined NPC makes some sense, but in what context would you ever find yourself where a gutter strumpet and a courtesan were equally likely? It’d make much more sense to have a slums encounter table that included the strumpet, a beggar, and a pickpocket, and a high society encounter table that included the courtesan, a jester, and a deep-in-debt noble. That kind of thing started right at character creation back then. “Roll d10 for your social class”. Really? I’m sure a serf paladin is going to start life well-equipped for his job… ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4004 "2017-12-08T04:14:20Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > I’m not surprised that she would want to kill him. I’m more surprised by her judgmental use of the word “depraved”. The former is a normal evil response, the overarching moral judgement not so much. Hilgya is a bit of a headcase, and her hippy-like free spiritedness has a judgmental edge. > **[83 Pillow Talk - Giant in the Playground Games](https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0083.html)** ## Moral language can be self-serving, tendentious, and narcissistic. Here’s the strip where Durkon lectures Hilgya on duty and they go their separate ways: > **[84 Saddest. Comic. Ever. - Giant in the Playground Games](https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html)** ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4005 "2017-12-08T04:31:00Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Plot aside, it seems a little strange that a priestess of the Chaotic Evil deity Loki would be offended by a “Love 'em and leave 'em” attitude or consider it depraved. But I guess Hilgya took it personally. Some have pointed out that Hilgya turned undead as opposed to rebuking undead. That implies that either she is chaotic neutral or Rich is using some sort of house rule. Her actions so far indicate evil to me, but the story ain’t over yet. Discussion: see “Personality and Traits” > **[Hilgya Firehelm](https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Hilgya_Firehelm)** > > Hilgya Firehelm is a dwarf cleric who worshiped Loki. She was one of the original members of the Linear Guild and Durkon Thundershield's evil counterpart. When younger, her parents arranged for her to marry Ivan, a dwarf from another clan who she had... ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4006 "2017-12-08T12:14:53Z")
> [@dzeiger](#): > > I checked, page 129 of my 1st ed AD&D DM’s guide was listing out descriptions of magic rings. Oh my god, you guys. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4007 "2017-12-08T12:33:08Z")
That little guy is _super_-cute. “Tunn unn deh!” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4008 "2017-12-08T13:29:13Z")
I think that her mention this strip about how Loki considers undead “icky and gross” is meant to refer to such a houserule, that clerics of Loki turn undead despite alignment. And a serf paladin just might be well-equipped for their job, if their job is to improve conditions for the serfs in their land. Nothing says that you can’t have a Lawful Good revolutionary. O-Chul and Lien, in fact, are both serf paladins, and both proud of it. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4009 "2017-12-08T15:37:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Oh my god, you guys. Come on, what else do you expect from nerds? > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Some have pointed out that Hilgya turned undead as opposed to rebuking undead. That implies that either she is chaotic neutral or Rich is using some sort of house rule. Her actions so far indicate evil to me, but the story ain’t over yet. I think we have the answer about why Loki, who’s pretty definitely Evil, provides his clerics with Turn Undead: “Lo, they are such gross, icky things.” I agree she’s Evil, too. Something to keep in mind. ETA: Oops, didn’t notice Chronos already made the point about why Loki provides Turn Undead. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4010 "2017-12-08T15:51:31Z")
Although, Hilgya can [command](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html)… uh… demons? Devils? Fire guys? Way back in the day, powerful clerics could turn minor demons and devils as undead (and evil clerics could control them the same way) but I don’t know if that carried over to 3.5 ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4011 "2017-12-08T16:13:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Even when the tables made no sense. Like, I once saw a scan from an old sourcebook of “random prostitutes”, with entries like “High-society courtesan” and “Gutter strumpet”. OK, an encounter with a randomly-determined NPC makes some sense, but in what context would you ever find yourself where a gutter strumpet and a courtesan were equally likely? It’d make much more sense to have a slums encounter table that included the strumpet, a beggar, and a pickpocket, and a high society encounter table that included the courtesan, a jester, and a deep-in-debt noble. I take it you haven’t much experience meeting prostitutes in real life? You wouldn’t have high class and low class areas with their own prostitutes. You’d have a red light district where both high and low class can be found, often in adjacent windows or buildings. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4012 "2017-12-08T17:41:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Jophiel** : > > Although, Hilgya can command… uh… demons? Devils? Fire guys? Fire guys. She’s got the Fire domain (and probably the Chaos one, but that’s not relevant), and so she can command creatures with the [Fire] subtype (or turn ones with the [Water] subtype). That’s a standard thing for fire clerics, and doesn’t depend on alignment. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4013 "2017-12-08T17:54:52Z")
Re-reading the old strips, Hilgya tells Durkon (when she rescues him and they set off alone) that Loki had commanded her to join Nale and steal the Talisman from him. So I guess Loki was against Hel’s plan (or at least someone finding the Gates) from way back. That’s some long set-up time. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4014 "2017-12-08T18:16:55Z")
I’m not sure that that follows. Nale was not one of Hel’s tools and I don’t think Loki knew about Hel’s plan until she revealed it at the Godsmoot. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4015 "2017-12-08T18:43:31Z")
If you read the prequel books, you’ll find that the Gate the OOTS destroyed (the one in Dorukan’s tower) was the second Gate to be destroyed. Red Cloak had accidentally already destroyed the Gate in Lirian’s forest. I would speculate that the destruction of Lirian’s Gate set off alarms in the pantheons and caused some of the gods, including Loki, to initiate plans. The Order of the Stick (and we the readers) weren’t aware of this ongoing background story until much later. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4016 "2017-12-08T18:47:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I would speculate that the destruction of Lirian’s Gate set off alarms in the pantheons and caused some of the gods, including Loki, to initiate plans. The Order of the Stick (and we the readers) weren’t aware of this ongoing background story until much later. Aye. Even if Hel’s particular mechanizations were unknown, Loki was on Team Save The World even before she voted. He’s been trying to prevent this whole Gate thing from the start. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4017 "2017-12-08T18:49:35Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I take it you haven’t much experience meeting prostitutes in real life? You wouldn’t have high class and low class areas with their own prostitutes. You’d have a red light district where both high and low class can be found, often in adjacent windows or buildings. My understanding is that this is not true. Prostitutes working in adjacent buildings are offering essentially the same service. How would the high class prostitute be able to charge prices ten times as high as the low class prostitute in a situation like that? High class prostitutes don’t work out of brothels or on street corners. They’re call girls who are summoned by the client. They’re expected to be able to “pass” as a non-prostitute around other people. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4018 "2017-12-29T20:45:08Z")
**[1108 Boys Don’t Scry](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1108.html)** ---
**Author:** ![vislor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vislor/32/5933_2.png) [@vislor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vislor)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4019 "2017-12-29T22:48:41Z")
Love that punchline! ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4020 "2017-12-29T23:13:41Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4021 "2017-12-30T02:10:28Z")
So, um, how did the lizard guy get along? Whom did he bite? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=200) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=202)