# Order of the Stick - Book 6 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 3, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755 "2014-03-03T16:07:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 226
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4502 "2018-07-27T19:33:08Z")
Will this be the end of Belkar!? And is his barbarian rage the result of guilt? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4503 "2018-07-27T20:07:15Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > Will this be the end of Belkar!? And is his barbarian rage the result of guilt? I think it’s a given that Bloodfeast will pop out again before Belkar dies. Belkar was already complaining about Durkon saving him before the battle so I don’t think that the vampire spirit learning the meaning of love had much to do with that. (Edit: I know you didn’t ask that but it was mentioned upthread) ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4504 "2018-07-27T20:15:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, looking at that big splash panel. On the left side, two panels out from his hand - is that Durkon remembering his own birth? Maybe? Look in the lower right. He’s being trained in tree defense against a sapling. ---
**Author:** ![Unpronounceable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de0a6/32.png) [@Unpronounceable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unpronounceable)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4505 "2018-07-27T20:40:06Z")
> [@Calatin](#): > > Anyone else getting a Dan Slott / Superior Spider-Man vibe off of the newest strip? More of an inverted knock-off of the Ang Lee Hulk movie’s climax. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4506 "2018-07-27T21:19:16Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It probably depends on the host. Durkon is a fundamentally good person. This [strip](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1112.html) shows that some hosts are actually okay with being vampires when their true natures are revealed. In rereading it, I’m realizing that the trick wasn’t to induce empathy, precisely: it was to destroy the vampire by completing it. That is, the vampire was Durkon’s worst day, and carefully filtered the memories it got. Durkon managed to feed him a memory so puzzling that the vampire asked for enough memories to provide context. The request allowed Durkon to provide all his memories–and this, in effect, replaced the vampire’s entire personality with Durkon’s. The last panel is key: Durkon and the vampire are speaking in unison. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4507 "2018-07-27T21:20:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Why he did this big memory during the battle is unclear. Maybe he had a few more memories he wanted to offer first, but then the battle came along and it was now or never. Maybe he wanted to offer it at a moment when, even if it didn’t result in a conversion, it’d result in some confusion at a critical moment. Better than anything I have, I guess. Is anyone else reminded of _The Stormlight Archive_? “The most important step a man can take… is the next one.” ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4508 "2018-07-27T21:45:07Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In rereading it, I’m realizing that the trick wasn’t to induce empathy, precisely: it was to destroy the vampire by completing it. > > That is, the vampire was Durkon’s worst day, and carefully filtered the memories it got. Durkon managed to feed him a memory so puzzling that the vampire asked for enough memories to provide context. The request allowed Durkon to provide all his memories–and this, in effect, replaced the vampire’s entire personality with Durkon’s. > > The last panel is key: Durkon and the vampire are speaking in unison. Why did Durkon wait until now to give the Sigdi story? I get that he has to come up with the plan to do so, when he realizes the vampire can’t make associations in memory. And that the plan is to rattle the vampire so that the vampire asks for all of Durkon’s memories at once, and therefore gets its personality overwritten. But that’s something that would be true long before they even got to Firmament. Or even the Godsmoot. In fact, the more life experience the vampire gets, the better chance it has of making sense of Sigdi’s story, and the more experiences it has both understanding Durkon, and gaining enough of its own personality to deal with the torrent of memories. I mean, this way we have Drama, and Durkon gets to save the day, but to me, the way this unfolded doesn’t even make logical sense according to the rules already stated by the author. Meh, it happened. Let’s get on with it already. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4509 "2018-07-27T23:23:34Z")
It’s possible the plan he comes up with in 963 isn’t so much a complete plan as a future idea for a plan. It’s possible he didn’t do anything at, say, the Godsmoot because he didn’t know what to do yet. But by 1116, where Durkon is muttering about the upcoming fight scene, it sure _sounds_ like he knows just what he’s going to do. But he doesn’t do it yet. I’m wondering if maybe he didn’t specifically know how he was going to get Greg to look at the memory, but he had some reason to believe that the fight would cause an opening he could exploit. If that’s the case, though, I’m not really following his train of thought. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4510 "2018-07-28T00:12:27Z")
Obviously Durkon was servicing Drama like a 2-copper harlot. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4511 "2018-07-28T00:30:21Z")
I went through a bunch of old comics looking for the Durkon/Durkula conversations. Here are some of the ones I think are significant. In [1086](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html), Durkon shows a memory of Thor’s temple, but mutters, “Thar’s definitely a use for it.” The memory emphasizes the support of his family. In [1087](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1087.html), Durkon continues the memory, in which one family member is terrible at something, and another says, “Of course! If she were any good, she wouldn’t have anything to learn from me!” Durkula discusses Durkon’s ineptness at getting revenge, and says that if he were any good at getting revenge, “he wouldn’t have anything to learn from me, I suppose.” I wonder if this is showing how Durkon can nudge Durkula’s personality with select memories. He continues with memories, but every time, he’s choosing ones that show him as a part of the family. Durkula gets annoyed and asks why he’s showing the memories, and Durkon [replies](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1089.html), “I was hopin’ ye’d learn a lesson aboot acceptin’ help when offer’d…Nah. I just wanted ye ta watch it.” Again, I think he’s trying to prep Durkula for the big memory. Skipping ahead to 1116, when Durkula says he’s gonna kill Durkon’s friends, he says, “Och, then get on wit’ it already. It’s def’nitely time fer tha big fight scene.” Not sure if he means something extra with that second sentence; it’s in small font, as though he’s saying it to himself. And in [1121](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1121.html), you see Durkon’s realization that he’s a dad, and Durkula promises not to kill the baby if Durkon stops showing him memories. He closes his eyes. Opens them, and says, “One. One last memory.” So yeah. I think he was planning this memory for later. He had more prep he wanted to do. But Durkula forced his play. It’s not that the fight had an opening Durkon could exploit–it’s that he was rushed into doing it then. His play–to convince Durkula to ask for all the memories, essentially becoming a carbon-copy of Durkon–was a good play, a successful play. He just wanted to make it later. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4512 "2018-07-28T00:38:11Z")
I’m also thinking back to Redcloak’s explanation of the undead, that they’re _not_ people, just semblances of them. Durkon can deal with all of his complicated memories and emotions and memories of emotions and emotions about memories, because he’s a real person. But the vampire isn’t a real person, and so can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4513 "2018-07-28T01:13:36Z")
I think **LHoD** is mostly right about the timing thing. Durkon needed time to construct this trap - I think it’s not just this last memory, but all the memories leading up to it to properly contextualize the big memory, so that it would sandbag Greg appropriately. He also needed to get Greg in a position where he’d agree to take the whole memory, not just skip to the part with the information he needed, which is presumably why he was distracted for this whole fight, whereas previously he’s been able to access information at the “speed of thought.” I’m not sure if he waited until now because he wanted more time to plan, but the big fight scene forced his hand, or if he was specifically waiting for a big fight so that Greg would be frustrated enough to agree to take the whole memory. Speaking of fight scenes, though, there’s definitely a double meaning to that panel in 1116 where he mutters, “Time for the big fight scene.” He’s not referring to the Order showing up - he’s referring to the fight he has with his mom when he finds out she gave away a fortune before he was born. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4514 "2018-07-28T01:39:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In [1087](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1087.html), Durkon continues the memory, in which one family member is terrible at something, and another says, “Of course! If she were any good, she wouldn’t have anything to learn from me!” . Correction - the apprentice bard isn’t a family member. Just a student learning from Thirden. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4515 "2018-07-28T01:55:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’m also thinking back to Redcloak’s explanation of the undead, that they’re _not_ people, just semblances of them. Durkon can deal with all of his complicated memories and emotions and memories of emotions and emotions about memories, because he’s a real person. But the vampire isn’t a real person, and so can’t. Or maybe Red lopak was wrong. Some of the undead that we’ve seen have shown independent thought and individual personality traits. It looks like they’re real people. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4516 "2018-07-28T02:37:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Speaking of fight scenes, though, there’s definitely a double meaning to that panel in 1116 where he mutters, “Time for the big fight scene.” He’s not referring to the Order showing up - he’s referring to the fight he has with his mom when he finds out she gave away a fortune before he was born. Totally. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4517 "2018-07-28T03:10:27Z")
I like the idea that he wasn’t entirely sure it would work, and so was also setting this up to still be a distraction, just in case. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4518 "2018-07-28T04:35:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I think **LHoD** is mostly right about the timing thing. Durkon needed time to construct this trap - I think it’s not just this last memory, but all the memories leading up to it to properly contextualize the big memory, so that it would sandbag Greg appropriately. He also needed to get Greg in a position where he’d agree to take the whole memory, not just skip to the part with the information he needed, which is presumably why he was distracted for this whole fight, whereas previously he’s been able to access information at the “speed of thought.” I’m not sure if he waited until now because he wanted more time to plan, but the big fight scene forced his hand, or if he was specifically waiting for a big fight so that Greg would be frustrated enough to agree to take the whole memory. He had to wait until now. Look at panel immediately preceding the splash page: Durkon appears gleeful as he springs the trap. He has to get Durkevil to _agree_ to take the memories. Otherwise it doesn’t happen. Durkevil has a higher intelligence than Durkon, but no experience and Vampiric arrogance. He’s not going to gulp down a lifetime’s full of memories out of idle curiosity and any such offer would be met by extreme suspicion. Durkevil took the bait now because he was both upset and felt that he had already won the battle anyway. So now we have Durkon with negative energy, not unlike Malack. I suppose a resurrection would erase all memories formed after he was sucked dry. And he might still be evil in some ways, though also less of a dick. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4519 "2018-07-28T04:49:45Z")
Oots dissects evil a lot: in this instance it is born out of rage and betrayal. Burlew head faked us when Roy learned that the betrayal wasn’t as bad as it appeared: Greg’s defeat would be at the hand’s of Durkon. Sometimes evil’s opposite involves generosity, empathy or honor. But there’s a less celebrated virtue that Burlew hammers home: constructiveness. That’s what guided Durkon’s Mom and that’s how he seems to have interpreted many of his own decisions. Others perceive selflessness; Durkon thinks of a broader process. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4520 "2018-07-28T05:32:55Z")
A nice little touch. In [1086](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html)Durkon’s uncle says “Ye know yer on the hook ta perform our weddin now, right?” The flashback in 1130 shows him doing so. (top right corner) ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Shine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr_shine/32/464_2.png) [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4521 "2018-07-28T07:30:37Z")
I don’t like it, Greg’s transformation was way too easy and cheap a plot point, assuming no further twists. Rich’s playground and he’s had way more hits than misses so I’m happy to go with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=225) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=227)