# Order of the Stick - Book 6 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 3, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755 "2014-03-03T16:07:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 238
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4742 "2018-08-13T21:33:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think the narrative demands that when the MITD’s identity is revealed, it should be immediately obvious that it has the powers it’s displayed. However, after all the appearances, there is no such monster. No monster matches all the known facts. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4743 "2018-08-13T21:45:59Z")
Meaning, he’s not a monster. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Or obvious after looking it up in the relevant Monster Manual/work of fiction. One of the great things about the strip is that it’s possible to enjoy it with absolutely no knowledge of D&D. Burlew isn’t going to change that. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4744 "2018-08-13T22:21:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > However, after all the appearances, there is no such monster. No monster matches all the known facts. Both the Athasian Nightmare Beast and the Uvuudaum fit. A template or two may be involved. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4745 "2018-08-13T22:24:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > However, after all the appearances, there is no such monster. No monster matches all the known facts. What rules out a hagunemnon? I thought the point is that a hagunemnon defaults to looking like a boiling mass of flesh that’s _a combination of different creatures_ — and so, depending on _what_ creatures it’s mimicking at any given time, it gains different extraordinary abilities. So even with the caveat that it has to spend one of its actions each round to maintain a particular shape from round to round, I’d figure it could still dial up the right effects to playact its way through every in-story appearance so far. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4746 "2018-08-13T22:26:23Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Both the Athasian Nightmare Beast and the Uvuudaum fit. A template or two may be involved. "Nightmare beasts have one immediately identifying characteristic, that being their immense size.\* All \*are nearly 20 feet tall and weigh close to 4,000 pounds each. " italics mine. “Confusion Aura (Su) This ability operates continuously, as the confusion spell but with a 30-foot radius.” They are also _always_ CE. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4747 "2018-08-13T22:31:25Z")
None of those monsters are Good-aligned. We know that the MitD is Good, because O-Chul said he was. Also, none of them can cast _Wish_. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4748 "2018-08-13T22:37:31Z")
_Wish_ is not needed. Both youth and a template or two (Dungeonbred comes to mind) can cover the size issue. The Uvuudaum is only usually Neutral Evil, and alignment can be changed. Everything is gone into in immense detail on the [GiantITP forum](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?563198-MitD-XI-A-good-man). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4749 "2018-08-13T22:43:27Z")
How do you explain “Escape” as anything but a Wish? It couldn’t have been any version of Teleport, because they need at least a vague concept of a destination, and he had no idea whatsoever where he was sending them. That leaves only Wish. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4750 "2018-08-13T23:05:18Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > How do you explain “Escape” as anything but a Wish? It couldn’t have been any version of Teleport, because they need at least a vague concept of a destination, and he had no idea whatsoever where he was sending them. That leaves only Wish. A hagunemnon can detect thoughts at will; is that enough to glean a vague concept? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4751 "2018-08-13T23:11:25Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > _Wish_ is not needed. Both youth and a template or two (Dungeonbred comes to mind) can cover the size issue. The Uvuudaum is only usually Neutral Evil, and alignment can be changed. Everything is gone into in immense detail on the [GiantITP forum](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?563198-MitD-XI-A-good-man). From there, quoting Rich himself :“I barely even reference the 3.5 rules anymore, using them just to determine what sort of spells or class abilities a character might have and then ignoring them the rest of the time.” So, IMHO there is no monster that matches, exactly. Once we see, we will go: “OK, well, yes, umm…err…that’s cool”. And a hundred nitpickers will descend. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4752 "2018-08-14T02:56:55Z")
Plus, narratively, he’s not writing for someone with a rulebook. He’s writing for the rest of the audience. Whatever the monster is, it’s going to be something the average non-roleplaying type can see and understand quickly. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4753 "2018-08-14T03:33:11Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Plus, narratively, he’s not writing for someone with a rulebook. He’s writing for the rest of the audience. Whatever the monster is, it’s going to be something the average non-roleplaying type can see and understand quickly. Thing is, I still think a hagunemnon can work even for folks who’ve never heard of it: figure it has a treant torso with bat wings and squid tentacles in panel _one,_ and has a skeleton torso with owl wings and spider legs in panel _two,_ and suddenly a reeeeeeal small amount of exposition can get the job done by the time it has a gelatinous-cube torso with butterfly wings and ape legs in panel _three_… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4754 "2018-08-14T03:36:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **The Other Waldo Pepper** : > > What rules out a hagunemnon? Is it surprising that a hagunemnon would be able to speak? Do hagunemnoi have fathers? Do they have a consistent gender identity? But most of all, what **Jonathan Chance** said. I highly doubt it’s going to be anything from a D&D rulebook more obscure than the Tarrasque (and it’s not the Tarrasque). ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4755 "2018-08-14T03:53:37Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Plus, narratively, he’s not writing for someone with a rulebook. He’s writing for the rest of the audience. Whatever the monster is, it’s going to be something the average non-roleplaying type can see and understand quickly. Hell, _I’m_ an audience with a rulebook, and I’ve never heard of most of these suggestions outside of this thread. It’s not going to be any of these suggestions, because Burlew has invested so much into establishing tMitD as a mystery, and none of these suggestions would be remotely satisfying answers to the mystery. It’s got to be something that most readers will say, “Oh, of course!” Nobody - even hardcore D&D geeks - is going to say, “Oh, of course!” to a uvuudaum, because almost nobody who plays D&D has ever seen one in a game. He might as well just make up his own monster, if he’s going that route. (Also, it’s totally not an uvuudaum. Literally the only physical feature we know about tMitD is that it has eyes. [Uvuudaum don’t](https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/sfery/images/7/71/Uvuudaum.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100831105541).) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4756 "2018-08-14T04:07:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Is it surprising that a hagunemnon would be able to speak? IIRC, the whole ‘patchwork shapeshifter’ schtick includes typically using what could at best be referred to as an ever-evolving language — instead of, uh, blandly talking the way a straightforward child would: granted, nothing stops the thing from picking up the ability to carry on a steady chat; but it’d be, well, surprising. > [@](#): > > Do hagunemnoi have fathers? > Do they have a consistent gender identity? I’m not seeing a problem, here. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4757 "2018-08-14T04:14:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, IMHO there is no monster that matches, exactly. Once we see, we will go: “OK, well, yes, umm…err…that’s cool”. And a hundred nitpickers will descend. I opine that a handful of monsters match, and one of them is pretty close (in other words, has been IDd). Nitpickers always descend, but their arguments are typically unpersuasive in a narrative sense (sometimes they admit this). No worries, I enjoy the nitpicking and others do too. > [@Alessan](#): > > One of the great things about the strip is that it’s possible to enjoy it with absolutely no knowledge of D&D. Burlew isn’t going to change that. Burlew has showcased Beholders and Mind Flayers before. When Picasso steps out from behind the umbrella, we’ll be able to go with the flow, even if we have never seen him before. Hell, given Rich’s artstyle, _nobody_ will have seen him before. > [@Alessan](#): > > None of those monsters are Good-aligned. We know that the MitD is Good, because O-Chul said he was. Careful. O’Chul has a habit of not giving up on people. Under the proper circumstances, I can imagine him saying that to someone of gray alignment such as Vaarsuvius. O’Chul can look past a lot to see what others can become. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4758 "2018-08-14T09:33:02Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > How do you explain “Escape” as anything but a Wish? It couldn’t have been any version of Teleport, because they need at least a vague concept of a destination, and he had no idea whatsoever where he was sending them. That leaves only Wish. This is well covered in the linked thread. Teleportation abilities do cover it, and the Uvuudaum has such an ability. The ANB has the ability of Psychoportation which also fits admirably. There’s no need for _Wish_. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4759 "2018-08-14T09:51:35Z")
Sorry, but I think you’re hammering too hard to get a round peg to enter a square hole. MAYBE some obscure monster from some half-forgotten supplement can fit some of the MitD’s characteristics if you twist your head just right and ignore half of what’s printed in the Epic Level Handbook. It feels too much like D&D nerds playing “gotcha”; as a life-long D&D nerd myself, I get the appeal, but IMHO that attitude doesn’t work in this adventure… I mean story. It’s like the dungeons I used to design as a DM when I was 13 - open one door, and you see a Beholder! Open another, and you see a Lich! It took me a while to realize that an adventure actually had to have some sort of internal logic to it. There’s no internal logic to MitD being an Uvuudaum. In other words, it may answer WHAT the MitD is, but it doesn’t answer WHO he is. Say he’s a Protean or an Uvuudaum. Which Protean or Uvuudaum is he? What’s his background? How does he fit into Burlew’s world? Don’t think of him as a monster, think of him as a character in a story. Being Zeus answers both \*what \*he is and \*who \*he is. I haven’t heard any real argument against that, either. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4760 "2018-08-14T10:05:11Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Being Zeus answers both \*what \*he is and \*who \*he is. I haven’t heard any real argument against that, either. IIRC, the argument against that one is that gods — and even demigods — are flatly immune to mind control. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/4761 "2018-08-14T10:30:43Z")
Or, to get way out there… He could be a combination of the Greek gods. Some sort of blended thing that occurred when they got offed by the snarl. And who knows what that would be. Fixing the mind control thing wouldn’t be hard with some significant trauma involved. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=237) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=239)