# Order of the Stick - Book 6 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 3, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755 "2014-03-03T16:07:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 259
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5162 "2018-09-23T16:30:12Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > I just noticed that when Thor is explaining the dolor theory, he mentions that all the previous worlds… **All but one** …were made of three colors. I wonder if the one world is the one that Blackwing saw. Also, is that the original world? Maybe the Snarl can’t destroy it, even though it killed everyone there. Perhaps everyone can get moved over to that world through the use of certain gates… The original world was made when the Eastern Pantheon was still around and four colors were available. And that world was explicitly said to have been completely destroyed. I have the sense that the story we’ve been told may not mention everything but that it doesn’t include any outright lies. So while we may not have previously heard about all of the universes that existed, we can believe that the things we have heard about - the Snarl, the Eastern Pantheon, the creation of the world, etc - are true. And if so, then the four-color world is gone. But you’ve raised a good point. The original world was created by four colors and it was destroyed by the Snarl. So restoring the possibility of four colors alone won’t end the threat. Maybe five colors are needed to create a world that’s immune to the Snarl. Another point is that the story is set in the current world, which we’ve been explicitly told is a world created by three colors. So if adding Purple or Green or some other color to the mix is the ultimate solution, it’s not going to apply to the stickworld universe. At the moment, it appears the best outcome the characters can achieve is to lay the groundwork so that when their world is destroyed it will be replaced by a new world that will be permanent. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5163 "2018-09-23T17:36:36Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Another point is that the story is set in the current world, which we’ve been explicitly told is a world created by three colors. So if adding Purple or Green or some other color to the mix is the ultimate solution, it’s not going to apply to the stickworld universe. If that were the case, then there would have been no reason for Thor to vote against destroying the world or telling Durkon all this stuff. Just destroy this world and let the next one be made with the Dark One contributing. It’s likely that gods that rise up from mortals don’t survive the destruction of that world. Otherwise, after many sagans of worlds, there should be lots more than the few ascended gods that currently exist. If this is the case, then there has to be something that can be done with the current world, since the DO wouldn’t be around to help make the next one. > [@](#): > > At the moment, it appears the best outcome the characters can achieve is to lay the groundwork so that when their world is destroyed it will be replaced by a new world that will be permanent. Not sure what kind of groundwork would need to be done, but I suppose it’s possible that Burlew has something in mind. I think it’s more likely that there’s a way for the gods to really fix the rifts (as opposed to the band-aids that the gates are) with the Dark One’s contribution, but it needs the cooperation of high level magic users, perhaps a cleric for each pantheon plus an arcane caster. Suggestion: Thor is going to make an Artifact for Durkon, something similar to the Red Cloak. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5164 "2018-09-23T17:53:02Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s likely that gods that rise up from mortals don’t survive the destruction of that world. Well, Redcloak doesn’t think so: His Plan B is for the world to be destroyed and for the Dark One to take part in creation of the next one, giving goblinoids a fair deal in that one. Now, Redcloak isn’t omniscient, but he is very knowledgeable about such matters, much of which knowledge comes directly from one whom you’d think would know. **dtilque** , I think I make my save against that Suggestion. While it certainly makes sense for Thor to do what he can to help Durkon, any artifact he could make would be purely Yellow, which we’ve already established just isn’t enough. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5165 "2018-09-23T18:26:40Z")
If he’ll survive the destruction of the Stick World, then there must be a reason why destroying the world and having him join them isn’t the plan. And the only such reason I’ve seen so far is the one Redcloak already gave: the Dark One simply would not be allowed to be involved. And that suggests the Dark One’s plan needs to succeed to force the gods to let him be involved. That said, there could be other reasons, but it’s hard to guess what they could be. The only thing occuring to me right now is that maybe the spell doesn’t actually do what the Dark One says. It actually is what gives him the ability to be involved in creation at all. (It would seem weird that only the divine quiddity of the Dark One would be enough to control anything–any such spell would seem to need all the gods involved.) Additional idea: he would survive the destruction, but he’d be powerless. Perhaps Goblinoids currently don’t actually go to an afterlife, and thus he wouldn’t have any power once the world is destroyed. He’d need to force them to come to his afterlife afterlife, so he’d retain enough power to be involved in the next creation. But I actually suspect that it’s something I’ve not thought of, because I hadn’t thought of any of this other stuff, either. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5166 "2018-09-23T18:44:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Well, Redcloak doesn’t think so: His Plan B is for the world to be destroyed and for the Dark One to take part in creation of the next one, giving goblinoids a fair deal in that one. Now, Redcloak isn’t omniscient, but he is very knowledgeable about such matters, much of which knowledge comes directly from one whom you’d think would know. That would be the Dark One. Unfortunately, the DO isn’t omniscient either. Just becoming a god does not automatically give one all the knowledge that other gods have. For instance, he did not know about the Snarl until told by other gods. So he probably does not know about the beelyuns and beelyuns of previous worlds that have been destroyed. And thus is unaware of the implications of all those destroyed worlds. > [@](#): > > **dtilque** , I think I make my save against that Suggestion. While it certainly makes sense for Thor to do what he can to help Durkon, any artifact he could make would be purely Yellow, which we’ve already established just isn’t enough. Such an Artifact would mainly be for the same reason the Dark One created the Crimson Mantle: to give its bearer knowledge of spells or the details of a Plan or something like that. This Artifact may be in the form of a new shield or hammer, since Durkula apparently ditched the ones Durkon previously had and they’ll need to be replaced. Also, he’d due for weapon upgrade, since he’s the only one still using his original weapon, or was when last alive. You’d think that being a single quiddity color would make Artifacts less powerful/robust than normal 3-color things, but that doesn’t jive with the rules on Artifacts. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5167 "2018-09-23T18:51:50Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > If that were the case, then there would have been no reason for Thor to vote against destroying the world or telling Durkon all this stuff. Just destroy this world and let the next one be made with the Dark One contributing. I said they need to lay the groundwork first. If the world was destroyed right now, the Snarl would probably kill the Dark One like he killed the Eastern Pantheon and the other gods would be back where they started. At best, the Dark One might survive but the other gods wouldn’t bring him in on the creation of the next world; they’ve never worked with the Dark One in the past and they’ve gotten used to creating new worlds with just three colors even it’s a futile process. So I’m assuming Thor (and probably some other gods) are seeking to change the situation before stickworld ends. They want to form an agreement with the Dark One while this world is still in existence so they’re prepared for its destruction. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5168 "2018-09-23T20:16:46Z")
I think you guys are having a bit of group-think, here. The play shouldn’t necessarily be ‘how do we control the snarl’ it should be ‘how can we cut a deal/communicate with the snarl?’ Remember that what we know about the snarl comes solely from the three pantheon’s points of view. They think the snarl is a ruthless destructing device because they’ve always been opposing it and it’s been playing defense since the beginning of time. But we also now know that there’s a whole other world in there that the snarl HASN’T destroyed. It’s possible that it’s been nurturing that world and it’s not actually so destructive…but that the pantheons have been so oppositional that it has to take a hard line. Working out of deal is always better than opposition just as cooperation is better and more successful - in general - that competition. If there’s room to cut a deal, that would be preferable to all - except perhaps Xykon (remember him) - and could give us a happy ending all around. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5169 "2018-09-23T20:55:20Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > It’s likely that gods that rise up from mortals don’t survive the destruction of that world. Otherwise, after many sagans of worlds, there should be lots more than the few ascended gods that currently exist. If this is the case, then there has to be something that can be done with the current world, since the DO wouldn’t be around to help make the next one. For normal new gods like Banjo (for small values of normal), that is likely true. However, the DO has a color - which is apparently a twist that hasn’t happened before. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5170 "2018-09-23T21:55:10Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I think you guys are having a bit of group-think, here. > > The play shouldn’t necessarily be ‘how do we control the snarl’ it should be ‘how can we cut a deal/communicate with the snarl?’ > > Remember that what we know about the snarl comes solely from the three pantheon’s points of view. They think the snarl is a ruthless destructing device because they’ve always been opposing it and it’s been playing defense since the beginning of time. > > But we also now know that there’s a whole other world in there that the snarl HASN’T destroyed. It’s possible that it’s been nurturing that world and it’s not actually so destructive…but that the pantheons have been so oppositional that it has to take a hard line. > > Working out of deal is always better than opposition just as cooperation is better and more successful - in general - that competition. If there’s room to cut a deal, that would be preferable to all - except perhaps Xykon (remember him) - and could give us a happy ending all around. [No kill I.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC99piLdC6E) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5171 "2018-09-23T22:39:36Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > But we also now know that there’s a whole other world in there that the snarl HASN’T destroyed. It’s possible that it’s been nurturing that world and it’s not actually so destructive…but that the pantheons have been so oppositional that it has to take a hard line. Maybe. The fact that its ocean [doesn’t even seem to have any fish](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html), though, seems to indicate that the world it’s nurturing is devoid of life - if it is a world at all. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5172 "2018-09-23T22:51:57Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Remember that what we know about the snarl comes solely from the three pantheon’s points of view. They think the snarl is a ruthless destructing device because they’ve always been opposing it and it’s been playing defense since the beginning of time. What can I say? You kill off a few trillion people and you’re going to get a reputation. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5173 "2018-09-24T00:12:09Z")
Oh, monochrome entities can be plenty powerful: The gods themselves are ample evidence of that. What artifacts lack isn’t power, but… I think I might call it applicability? Artifacts tend to have one singular purpose, and while some of them _can_ be used for other purposes, they’ll inevitably warp their wielder into monomaniacally serving the same purpose that they do. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5174 "2018-09-24T01:30:57Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Oh, monochrome entities can be plenty powerful: The gods themselves are ample evidence of that. What artifacts lack isn’t power, but… I think I might call it applicability? Artifacts tend to have one singular purpose, and while some of them _can_ be used for other purposes, they’ll inevitably warp their wielder into monomaniacally serving the same purpose that they do. Hmmm… that explains a lot about Redcloak. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5175 "2018-09-24T01:33:23Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I think you guys are having a bit of group-think, here. > > The play shouldn’t necessarily be ‘how do we control the snarl’ it should be ‘how can we cut a deal/communicate with the snarl?’ > > Remember that what we know about the snarl comes solely from the three pantheon’s points of view. They think the snarl is a ruthless destructing device because they’ve always been opposing it and it’s been playing defense since the beginning of time. > > But we also now know that there’s a whole other world in there that the snarl HASN’T destroyed. It’s possible that it’s been nurturing that world and it’s not actually so destructive…but that the pantheons have been so oppositional that it has to take a hard line. > > Working out of deal is always better than opposition just as cooperation is better and more successful - in general - that competition. If there’s room to cut a deal, that would be preferable to all - except perhaps Xykon (remember him) - and could give us a happy ending all around. I’m just trying to figure out why they couldn’t just destroy the world now and have the Dark One join in making the next one, so that this next one could actually maybe handle the Snarl. That’s all about the gods’ plans, and they don’t seem to know about the world inside. Now, if we do want to discuss the full story, then I’d say the main problem with this theory is that it makes this new quiddity knowledge pointless if it’s just negotiation. Plus, while we know there’s a (seemingly dead) world inside, I don’t know of any indication the Snarl is sapient. I suspect that any deal would not involve the Snarl as a party, and that it will involve using their quiddities together. I do however think that the world inside will be relevant, possibly as a world that is better than anything the gods can create. Maybe the snarl can’t actually do anything to it. Or maybe it is their first world, and the snarl can’t destroy it because it’s equal in quiddities–it just killed the green gods and erased all life. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5176 "2018-09-24T02:26:26Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Maybe. The fact that its ocean [doesn’t even seem to have any fish](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html), though, seems to indicate that the world it’s nurturing is devoid of life - if it is a world at all. It’s pretty clearly a world. [http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html) And it shows greenery. Why the seas would be devoid of fish, I don’t know. But that image shows plant life from orbit. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5177 "2018-09-24T02:33:34Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > And it shows greenery. Why the seas would be devoid of fish, I don’t know. But that image shows plant life from orbit. It’s pretty icy, maybe it is just coming out of Snowball-Snarl-World and advanced animal life hasn’t developed yet. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5178 "2018-09-24T03:59:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Oh, monochrome entities can be plenty powerful: The gods themselves are ample evidence of that. What artifacts lack isn’t power, but… I think I might call it applicability? Artifacts tend to have one singular purpose, and while some of them _can_ be used for other purposes, **they’ll inevitably warp their wielder into monomaniacally serving the same purpose that they do.** Tolkien told us about that. But he also told us that Dwarfs generally don’t succumb to such influences. So Durkon might be a safe choice for Wielder of the Saffron Hammer. As for needing to create a new world in order to incorporate the Purple quiditty into the Alliance in Opposition to the Snarl, can’t they fashion a new Snarl-imprisoning system/device/pocket dimension together without having to start over from scratch? It may be that Thor believes this to be within the realm of possibilities; it would be consistent with his “No” vote in the Godsmoot. (Plus, if they manage to fold in a _fifth_ colored quiditty to such an exploit, that might ensnare the Snarl for good.) ETA: Is it plausible to suppose that Thor might Schism from the Northern Pantheon and declare a new pantheon of his own (He could welcome Banjo and Giggles in as members)? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5179 "2018-09-24T04:08:51Z")
Second, after-the-bell ETA: Probably not; he seems pretty committed to standing in opposition to Hel, and swarning to form a new pantheon would almost certainly interfere with that. Indeed, his bet with Hel might make such a course of action impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5180 "2018-09-24T06:34:16Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > It’s pretty clearly a world. > > [672 A Familiar Conclusion - Giant in the Playground Games](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html) > > And it shows greenery. Why the seas would be devoid of fish, I don’t know. But that image shows plant life from orbit. It \*looks \*like a world, sure. But that’s all we know. Maybe it’s an illusion of world. Maybe the Snarl is trying to create a world, but lacks the ability to form anything more complex than a simple simulacrum. Or maybe the world is what the Snarl looks like in its resting state. It could be anything. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5181 "2018-09-24T11:48:55Z")
I’m wondering if [Laurin](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html) is going to be a key conduit for communicating with the Snarl at some point several plot arc resolutions down the road. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=258) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=260)