# Order of the Stick - Book 6 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 3, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755 "2014-03-03T16:07:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 271
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5402 "2018-12-16T00:44:21Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I don’t think careful planning can compensate for Xykon temporarily teaming up with Team Oots to prevent the end of the world. There are limits. But the OotS are going to try to team up with RC to save the world. Not that I think they’re going to be successful at that. They may propose the team up, but I expect RC to turn them down. They’ll end up finding a different, probably better, solution to the Snarl problem. After all, the solution Thor wants is really more of a stopgap than a real solution. A better one than the gates, but still not a true fix. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5403 "2018-12-16T03:03:01Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Moving over to an older debate, I think Redcloak can curbstomp Xykon, due to years of focused contingency planning. Redcloak isn’t just going rely on a single magic bullet: he’s going to anticipate Xykon’s responses and plot things out 9 moves ahead. Xykon maxes out at 2 moves. Also, Redcloak knows exactly what the MitD is and can pre-empt those attacks as well. I don’t know. I acknowledge Xykon usually uses brute force to overwhelm his opponents. But I think he does that because it works. He doesn’t use strategy because he doesn’t need it. But Xykon has shown he is capable of acting more intelligently when he needs to. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5404 "2018-12-16T11:21:44Z")
Didn’t Xykon once say something like, “Anything to avoid the fires down below.”? In which case, might he actually join up with the Order to save the world? His price being salvation, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5405 "2018-12-16T13:40:32Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > But the OotS are going to try to team up with RC to save the world. Not that I think they’re going to be successful at that. They may propose the team up, but I expect RC to turn them down. > > They’ll end up finding a different, probably better, solution to the Snarl problem. After all, the solution Thor wants is really more of a stopgap than a real solution. A better one than the gates, but still not a true fix. Indeed. An ideal solution would be, somehow, cutting a deal with The Snarl. But we don’t even know now whether it can communicate. It’s possible it would be willing to do so but considers the gods to be unremittingly hostile to its entire existence. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5406 "2018-12-16T13:46:06Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Didn’t Xykon once say something like, “Anything to avoid the fires down below.”? In which case, might he actually join up with the Order to save the world? His price being salvation, of course. Xykon would never settle on anything short of godhood. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5407 "2018-12-16T14:17:39Z")
He’s essentially a god now. He’s what? Level 20? 25? More? At that level the difference between epic level character and god is pretty blurry. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5408 "2018-12-16T14:54:22Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > He’s essentially a god now. He’s what? Level 20? 25? More? I ran the numbers and he’s most likely in the upper 20s. > [@](#): > > At that level the difference between epic level character and god is pretty blurry. That depends on the GM. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5409 "2018-12-16T15:12:29Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > He’s essentially a god now. He’s what? Level 20? 25? More? At that level the difference between epic level character and god is pretty blurry. He may have godlike powers, but he can still die. Or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5410 "2018-12-16T15:34:39Z")
And so can gods, clearly. This whole thing started with gods dying. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5411 "2018-12-16T16:00:27Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > And so can gods, clearly. This whole thing started with gods dying. Does Xykon know that? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5412 "2018-12-16T16:34:52Z")
Xykon might agree to help is he was convinced the world was in danger of ending. He has no interest in that occurring. But right after he helped save the world, he would go back to his original plan of conquering it. And right after the world was saved, the Order of the Stick would go back to their original plan of preventing people like Xykon from conquering the world. It would be an interesting dynamic to have two groups working together towards a common goal with both sides knowing they should eliminate the other the instant the goal was achieved. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5413 "2018-12-16T18:31:15Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Indeed. An ideal solution would be, somehow, cutting a deal with The Snarl. But we don’t even know now whether it can communicate. It’s possible it would be willing to do so but considers the gods to be unremittingly hostile to its entire existence. I think more likely that the Snarl no longer wants to exist and it turns out the Order has something that can effect that. Something the gods do not have. I even have an idea what that something is. > [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > This whole thing started with gods dying. > [@Alessan](#): > > Does Xykon know that? Yes. In SoD, Redcloak told him about the Snarl wiping out the Eastern Pantheon. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5414 "2018-12-16T23:42:32Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t know. I acknowledge Xykon usually uses brute force to overwhelm his opponents. But I think he does that because it works. He doesn’t use strategy because he doesn’t need it. > > But Xykon has shown he is capable of acting more intelligently when he needs to. Xykon has the intelligence to play 3 dimensional chess. He just lacks the patience. “Doesn’t care doesn’t imply doesn’t know.” Redcloak isn’t as smart as Xykon. But he’s motivated and has probably gamed things out over the course of years. Xykon presumably has figured out what Redcloak might do after attacked by the MitD. But I doubt whether he has thought much beyond his first or 2nd response to that. Burlew might choose another route though: I’m not sure how entertaining Redcloak as a very prepared Batman would be. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5415 "2018-12-17T01:12:07Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Xykon has the intelligence to play 3 dimensional chess. He just lacks the patience. “Doesn’t care doesn’t imply doesn’t know.” Redcloak isn’t as smart as Xykon. But he’s motivated and has probably gamed things out over the course of years. Presumably Redcloak is seeped in wisdom though. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5416 "2018-12-17T02:51:18Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Xykon has the intelligence to play 3 dimensional chess. He just lacks the patience. “Doesn’t care doesn’t imply doesn’t know.” Redcloak isn’t as smart as Xykon. But he’s motivated and has probably gamed things out over the course of years. > > Xykon presumably has figured out what Redcloak might do after attacked by the MitD. But I doubt whether he has thought much beyond his first or 2nd response to that. > > Burlew might choose another route though: I’m not sure how entertaining Redcloak as a very prepared Batman would be. But consider the MitD angle. Xykon planted a hidden compulsion with the MitD to attack Redcloak if Redcloak ever betrayed him. That means Xykon was considering that possibility at least four years ago and making plans for it. This shows that Xykon is capable of making long-term plans. Heck, the fact that he’s still trying to capture the Gates after thirty years shows that. Xykon isn’t Nale or Tarquin; he doesn’t form elaborate plans just for the sake of it. Ninety-nine percent of the time he solves problems by brute force because it works. But he is capable of other solutions in the one percent of the time when brute force won’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Sasquatch\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8491ac/32.png) [@Sasquatch\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sasquatch_1)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5417 "2018-12-17T02:56:50Z")
Remember Xykon is a sorcerer, not a wizard, so game stats wise, he has no use for a high intelligence score. He has a great depth of experience, power, and chutzpah, but not exactly a top IQ-surrogate mark. (+2 for lich and +2 or 3 for age though) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5418 "2018-12-17T03:05:38Z")
Remember, he was flunking out of school at the time that he discovered his sorcerous powers. That suggests both a low Int and Wis (though both have, since then, been boosted to at least decent levels). Redcloak is certainly wiser than him, and there’s a pretty good chance he’s also more intelligent. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5419 "2018-12-17T06:40:44Z")
For some reason I thought lich-hood gained you a higher intelligence bonus than +2. Woops. Xykon can certainly think ahead. In SoD he anticipated an attack by team Redcloak and countered it. But Redcloak knows this, and Redcloak is fully dedicated/obsessed with his mission. I think RC has guessed why Xykon keeps MitD around, and has planned accordingly. In turn, Xykon knows Redcloak has been plotting. But that won’t help him when he wakes up in a phylactery away from his astral plane hideout. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5420 "2018-12-17T07:09:18Z")
> [@Sasquatch](#): > > Remember Xykon is a sorcerer, not a wizard, so game stats wise, he has no use for a high intelligence score. He has a great depth of experience, power, and chutzpah, but not exactly a top IQ-surrogate mark. (+2 for lich and +2 or 3 for age though) Remember that Roy, a fighter, has 18 intelligence. Min-maxing was not a consideration when designing these characters. More like “roll 3d6 six times, in order.” Or, you know, thinking of them like characters in a story instead of gaming characters. And there are other reasons for flunking out of school besides being unintelligent and unwise. Various personality issues, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5421 "2018-12-17T14:18:56Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Remember that Roy, a fighter, has 18 intelligence. Nah. He’s smart but more like 15 or 16 smart. There’s the one early gag comic where the mind flayers are eating Roy’s brain but the obvious joke is that they are not going for the more intelligent Vaarsuvius’ brain. Since V indigently states that s/he has an 18 Int, you’re left to either assume that the mind flayers found something else yummy about it or that Roy, rather improbably, has a 19 or 20 Int. That said, Roy did very well in the genetic 3d6 lottery with 18 (natural) strength, high constitution, moderately high intelligence and better than average wisdom and charisma. The only stat where he’s likely average is dexterity and he’s not bad at it, just not noteworthy. The fan Wiki says he has 14-17 Int which makes sense but also gives him 13+ dexterity which I’m skeptical about and 8+ Constitution which is _technically_ true in that it’s over 8, but I’d say it’s well well over 8. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=270) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=272)