# Order of the Stick - Book 6 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 3, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755 "2014-03-03T16:07:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 285
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2019, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5683 "2019-03-07T23:29:16Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > On #1157… > “Within the boundaries of the _blue_ barrier, anyone violating dwarven law is instantly turned to stone until the meeting is formally adjourned.” > I’m hesitant to make any guesses, but … any dwarven law? > Wouldn’t it be a kick if being a vampire were already against dwarven law - say, on the basis of the vampire holding the body, and the spirit, of an existing dwarf in confinement. Or something like that. I like that idea, but unfortunately, knowledge of how vampires work is _really really_ rare in OOTSworld. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5684 "2019-03-08T00:54:32Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > On #1157… > “Within the boundaries of the _blue_ barrier, anyone violating dwarven law is instantly turned to stone until the meeting is formally adjourned.” > I’m hesitant to make any guesses, but … any dwarven law? > Wouldn’t it be a kick if being a vampire were already against dwarven law - say, on the basis of the vampire holding the body, and the spirit, of an existing dwarf in confinement. Or something like that. > [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > I like that idea, but unfortunately, knowledge of how vampires work is _really really_ rare in OOTSworld. Again, I’m spitballing, but…it’s not the people who have to know how vampirism works - it’s the ward/blue barrier/whatever it is that has to know. it’s magical, so who knows? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5685 "2019-03-08T01:26:27Z")
For that matter, vampirism in itself might be illegal. I mean, you don’t have to know all the precise details to know that vampires are bad. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5686 "2019-03-08T02:16:33Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > Again, I’m spitballing, but…it’s not the people who have to know how vampirism works - it’s the ward/blue barrier/whatever it is that has to know. it’s magical, so who knows? > [@Chronos](#): > > For that matter, vampirism in itself might be illegal. I mean, you don’t have to know all the precise details to know that vampires are bad. If “being a certain creature type” was somehow illegal, they’d be auto-stoned. But for the rationale to be “vampires kidnap people’s spirits and _that’s_ the crime”, the dwarves would have to know how vampires work. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5687 "2019-03-08T12:55:58Z")
I’d expect any world with magic that can compel people to act that such votes would not count. Sure, put up all the practical measures to make it difficult to achieve, but also just make it against the law. The only problem would be knowing it is happening, but then all you need is someone who isn’t compelled to notice the swirly eyes or something. Or, well, automatic casting of spells that remove all magical effects and disrupt concentration as part of what makes a vote legal. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5688 "2019-03-08T14:02:10Z")
So how does one go about changing Dwarvish law? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5689 "2019-03-08T16:33:42Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Or, well, automatic casting of spells that remove all magical effects and disrupt concentration as part of what makes a vote legal. Well, Gondar (was that his name? It’s been a while) suggests that the Dwarf Powers That Be who designed the place may have wanted to keep the ability to manipulate the vote themselves, so removing any magical effects while voting would run contrary to that. The exterior field just keeps anyone who’s not a dwarf from messing with things. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5690 "2019-03-08T18:42:56Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So how does one go about changing Dwarvish law? No doubt there’s a way to do it, but this Council of Clans is no longer the body to do it. The capital of Dwarven Lands is in another city. So suggestions that the Council pass a new law in this meeting are null and void. > [@Jophiel](#): > > Well, Gondar (was that his name? It’s been a while) suggests that the Dwarf Powers That Be who designed the place may have wanted to keep the ability to manipulate the vote themselves, so removing any magical effects while voting would run contrary to that. The exterior field just keeps anyone who’s not a dwarf from messing with things. Gontar Hammerfell, the Exarch _was_ his name; now it’s Gontula or Ex-exarch or somesuch. The outer orange barrier also removes any existing compulsions or other magical effects. To be completely effective, that barrier should also prohibit any spells from being cast across it. Otherwise, an evil miscreant could stand just outside the barrier and cast Dominate Person just after someone enters the middle chamber. Gontula doesn’t say it does that, but he doesn’t necessarily give the complete list of all its effects. ---
**Author:** ![ebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@ebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ebb)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5691 "2019-03-08T18:53:06Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So how does one go about changing Dwarvish law? It should be pretty easy. It’s not like this stuff is carved in stone. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5692 "2019-03-08T20:36:01Z")
> [@ebb](#): > > It should be pretty easy. It’s not like this stuff is carved in stone. And there’s no need to fuss over it. It’s not like the world’s going to end if you get it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5693 "2019-03-08T21:40:19Z")
Something just occured to me. The Gate that Gontor opened could be used for more than just a single monster. While Gates can be used to summon a monster, this one looks like he just opened the gate to Hel’s abode and she sent the monster through. So it could stay open for as many rounds as Gontor has caster levels. That’s at least 5 and probably more rounds. Think Hel will send more monsters through? ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5694 "2019-03-08T22:16:19Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Something just occured to me. The Gate that Gontor opened could be used for more than just a single monster. While Gates can be used to summon a monster, this one looks like he just opened the gate to Hel’s abode and she sent the monster through. So it could stay open for as many rounds as Gontor has caster levels. That’s at least 5 and probably more rounds. Think Hel will send more monsters through? [Gate :: d20srd.org](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) for Gate, not that Burlew’s been bound by the SRD in the past. Looks like you need to promise the critter something to get it to work for you for an extended period, a la Planar Ally. I don’t know if “go through the Gate and kill whatever non-Dwarf you see” counts as one service or an ongoing thing that has to be contracted for. Do scroll-cast spells cast at the level of the guy reading the scroll, or at the level of the person who wrote the scroll, or something else? Daylight is supposed to inspire great revulsion in Nightshades, enough that they want to be anywhere else, though it doesn’t kill them like vampires. If we think Durkon is going to raise the roof, the daylight that’ll flood into the cavern should take care of driving off the Nightcrawler. Of course, this assumes Firmament is not so far enough north that there are daylight hours in days so near the winter solstice. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5695 "2019-03-08T23:31:56Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > [Gate :: d20srd.org](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) for Gate, not that Burlew’s been bound by the SRD in the past. Looks like you need to promise the critter something to get it to work for you for an extended period, a la Planar Ally. I don’t know if “go through the Gate and kill whatever non-Dwarf you see” counts as one service or an ongoing thing that has to be contracted for. But that’s only if you use the Calling Creature function of the Gate. In this case, Gontor did not do that; Hel just sent one of her minions through. She could send others through as well. > [@](#): > > Do scroll-cast spells cast at the level of the guy reading the scroll, or at the level of the person who wrote the scroll, or something else? According to the [SRD](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm), it defaults to the minimum level needed to cast the spell, although the caster can set a different level. I assume that Gontor is not of the level to cast this particular spell, but made his level check. So I would guess that he can only specify a lower level as the caster level for this. > [@](#): > > Daylight is supposed to inspire great revulsion in Nightshades, enough that they want to be anywhere else, though it doesn’t kill them like vampires. If we think Durkon is going to raise the roof, the daylight that’ll flood into the cavern should take care of driving off the Nightcrawler. Of course, this assumes Firmament is not so far enough north that there are daylight hours in days so near the winter solstice. The meeting is scheduled for mid-morning, so it’s plausible that it’s high enough if that’s what the script calls for. But the Order will not want the worm to go elsewhere, since just about anywhere else nearby it could hide is in Dwarven caverns. They’re trying to avoid getting random dwarves killed. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5696 "2019-03-09T02:00:06Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > But that’s only if you use the Calling Creature function of the Gate. In this case, Gontor did not do that; Hel just sent one of her minions through. She could send others through as well. > > According to the [SRD](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm), it defaults to the minimum level needed to cast the spell, although the caster can set a different level. I assume that Gontor is not of the level to cast this particular spell, but made his level check. So I would guess that he can only specify a lower level as the caster level for this. > > The meeting is scheduled for mid-morning, so it’s plausible that it’s high enough if that’s what the script calls for. But the Order will not want the worm to go elsewhere, since just about anywhere else nearby it could hide is in Dwarven caverns. They’re trying to avoid getting random dwarves killed. For your first point, I just interpreted that as an art artifact. But if it did stay open, i don’t see why she couldn’t send through whatever was in the vicinity of her end of the gate. Despite that being pretty clearly against the spirit of the text for Gate, but hey, God. Though Thor and Loki should be just as able to interfere. On the third point, I’m interpreting Gate as a limited duration summoning spell. So, getting the Nightcrawler to run off works, as it’ll be heading to wherever-they-live-normally soon enough. Unlike leaving the Exarch and Co to run around after this. On the second, I guess it defaults to minimum CL to cast Gate, so 17? Not like it matters that much, although, the Exarch is acting either like he needs that summon right now for a threat, or he thinks it’s going to hang around awhile. Else why cast it now? EDIT: Thanks for the info, and the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5697 "2019-03-09T06:02:53Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > There’s a difference between what Elan can do and what he realizes he can do. On this note, and using my new knowledge that Song of Freedom has a Break Enchantment feature, could Elan break the Baleful Polymorph that’s rendered Bloodfeast so regrettably travel-sized? Leaving aside for the moment that I think he’s still aboard the Mechane. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5698 "2019-03-09T08:31:53Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > On this note, and using my new knowledge that Song of Freedom has a Break Enchantment feature, could Elan break the Baleful Polymorph that’s rendered Bloodfeast so regrettably travel-sized? As far as I can tell, yes it could. It functions the same as a Break Enchantment, except on a single person at a time. > [@](#): > > Leaving aside for the moment that I think he’s still aboard the Mechane. Nope, Bloodfeast is currently residing in [Belkar’s Bag of Holding](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1091.html). This actually makes me wonder if the Order is actually going back to the Mechane. I don’t think there’s any significant baggage they left on board. So after this battle, they could go to the surface and find it gone. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5699 "2019-03-09T09:10:20Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > For your first point, I just interpreted that as an art artifact. But if it did stay open, i don’t see why she couldn’t send through whatever was in the vicinity of her end of the gate. Despite that being pretty clearly against the spirit of the text for Gate, but hey, God. Though Thor and Loki should be just as able to interfere. No that’s not against the spirit of the text. Gate does not have to be a summoning spell. it’s possible to use it that way, but not required. It can be used like a Plane Shift, except with exact targeting. > [@](#): > > On the third point, I’m interpreting Gate as a limited duration summoning spell. So, getting the Nightcrawler to run off works, as it’ll be heading to wherever-they-live-normally soon enough. Unlike leaving the Exarch and Co to run around after this. If this is a Called Creature, it should be uncontrolled. It’s uncontrolled if its HD is more than twice the caster’s level. That means caster level, not total level. Gontula is probably about 5th or 6th, possibly a 7th level caster. And if I understand the specs of a Nightcrawler, it has 25 HD. An uncontrolled Called Creature can return home any time it wants. > [@](#): > > On the second, I guess it defaults to minimum CL to cast Gate, so 17? Caster level, not total level. So 9. > [@](#): > > Not like it matters that much, although, the Exarch is acting either like he needs that summon right now for a threat, or he thinks it’s going to hang around awhile. Else why cast it now? If it’s one of Hel’s minions, it shouldn’t make a difference when it arrives. I would expect it to do her bidding, which in this case is to hang around and prevent anyone from entering the chamber. And it certainly looks like it is, since it came directly from her, not from where ever Nightcrawlers usually live. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5700 "2019-03-09T09:17:40Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > If this is a Called Creature, it should be uncontrolled. It’s uncontrolled if its HD is more than twice the caster’s level. That means caster level, not total level. Gontula is probably about 5th or 6th, possibly a 7th level caster. Gontula is likely 17th level. He read a scroll of Gate with no problem at all. > [@SRD](#): > > A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. IIRC it’s 5% per level difference. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5701 "2019-03-09T09:27:35Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Gontula is likely 17th level. He read a scroll of Gate with no problem at all. It’s **caster level** , not total level. Even if he’s that high, his caster level is 9. Still would be uncontrolled. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/5702 "2019-03-09T09:36:16Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Caster level, not total level. So 9. > [@dtilque](#): > > It’s **caster level** , not total level. Even if he’s that high, his caster level is 9. Still would be uncontrolled. Oops, my mistake. I misundertood what caster level means. I thought it was the highest level of spell one could cast. Instead it’s the highest level for that class. So never mind. But I still think the Nightcrawler is not a summoned creature. Or if it is summoned, it was summoned by Hel, not Gontula. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=284) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=286)