# Order of the Stick - Book 6 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 3, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755 "2014-03-03T16:07:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/841 "2015-03-20T14:18:43Z")
Agreed with the above. Crystal was evil. She deserved to die. Haley is Chaotic, not bound by fair fights or rule of law. She’s a rogue for God’s sake. There is nothing out of character or “wrong” with her character taking the opportunity to kill someone who she knows is a terrible person who will continue to do evil even if Crystal wasn’t an immediate threat. As I recall, her alignment is sorta between CG and CN, again making her actions reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![vislor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vislor/32/5933_2.png) [@vislor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vislor)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/842 "2015-03-20T14:36:51Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Which, IMHO, cheapens Haley’s character and is a sign of Rich wimping out (a rare one). > > A Haley who attacks in self-defense? What the hell, it’s self-defense. > > A Haley whose response to the existence of Crystal and her past behavior but cold-bloodedly assassinating her? That’s character development that establishes Haley on the badass meter somewhere near Redcloak and his treatment of Princess Gothy McWightlover. It also differentiates her from Belkar (who kills for sport) and Roy (who always tries to do the good thing. It makes her the character who has both decision making capability (Crystal needs to go) and agency (I’m going to do it). > > By making it self-defense Rich steals away Haley’s unique character and makes her one more adventurer who won’t kill unless threatened. Feh. I also agree with that. It was much better, as you say, when Haley says, “this needs to be done, I will go do it.” ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/843 "2015-03-20T14:56:11Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > _Haley stabbed first!_ Yes, but if you strike her down, she becomes more powerful than you could possibly imagine. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/844 "2015-03-20T16:04:05Z")
So, what’s the \*point \*of all this? The whole “Oh, the ship is broken so we have to get repairs” bit was clearly engineered so that the Thieves Guild and the Order could have this encounter. I don’t believe for a moment that Haley is going to die. But the focus is clearly on her just now: the payoff for this whole detour will be some change/growth in Haley. There can’t be a clearer “mistakes you made in the past will come back to haunt you” metaphor than the golem of your last murder victim. But is Haley really going to decide she made a mistake in killing Crystal? Or will it be not killing Bozzok that was the mistake? Or is the point something else entirely? I’m assuming there is a point other than “further wacky adventures”, but there usually is. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/845 "2015-03-20T16:11:08Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > I think Haley is getting a pretty stiff dose of karmic retribution; maybe it isn’t such a great idea to stab your defenseless counterpart in the shower, even if they’re evil and annoying. Also…being a flesh golem apparently isn’t as much fun as it’s cracked up to be. Yeah, but if she hadn’t stabbed Crystal… she’d still be fighting Crystal right now anyway, because that’s the nature of recurring antagonists. It might even still be a Crystal golem, because Bozzak’s just the sort of dick to off his own minion and subject their corpse to unspeakable black magic, just for the hell of it. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/846 "2015-03-20T16:54:39Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > So, what’s the \*point \*of all this? Eighteen month side plot about getting Haley rezzed 😉 ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/847 "2015-03-20T20:04:37Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Once again, referring to the books. Burlew has said he regrets not making it clearer in the strip. Bozzok never had any intention of honoring the deal he had made. He had already told Crystal to kill Haley (which Crystal screwed up). So Haley’s attack on Crystal, which we saw in the strip, was not the unjustified act it appeared to be. It was self-defense after Crystal had revealed she was going to kill Haley as soon as possible. Except, I’m drawing a blank on whether Haley knew for a fact that Bozzok was actively planning on double-crossing her on their deal, or if she was just savvy enough to suspect it and act preemptively in any case. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/848 "2015-03-21T21:48:56Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Which, IMHO, cheapens Haley’s character and is a sign of Rich wimping out (a rare one). > > A Haley who attacks in self-defense? What the hell, it’s self-defense. > > A Haley whose response to the existence of Crystal and her past behavior but cold-bloodedly assassinating her? That’s character development that establishes Haley on the badass meter somewhere near Redcloak and his treatment of Princess Gothy McWightlover. It also differentiates her from Belkar (who kills for sport) and Roy (who always tries to do the good thing. It makes her the character who has both decision making capability (Crystal needs to go) and agency (I’m going to do it). > > By making it self-defense Rich steals away Haley’s unique character and makes her one more adventurer who won’t kill unless threatened. Feh. I figure Burlew’s already covering the issue of what degree of killing can be justified via Vaarsuvius and the familicide storyline. He doesn’t need to raise the same issues through Haley. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/849 "2015-03-21T21:53:39Z")
> [@shantih](#): > > Except, I’m drawing a blank on whether Haley knew for a fact that Bozzok was actively planning on double-crossing her on their deal, or if she was just savvy enough to suspect it and act preemptively in any case. Crystal told Haley she was trying to kill her. I don’t remember if Crystal specifically said Bozzok authorized it (I don’t have the book handy right now) but I don’t see it making much of a difference in Haley killing Crystal. Regardless of whether Crystal was following Bozzok’s orders or defying them, Haley was justified in killing Crystal in self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/850 "2015-03-21T22:04:07Z")
It seems to me that working alongside people as evil as Crystal and Bozzok is in and of itself evil, even if it is for a good cause. Besides, evil prospers when good people do nothing. Haley did something. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/851 "2015-03-21T22:56:24Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > So, what’s the \*point \*of all this? Tying up loose ends ? Bozzok & co. being noticed by Xykon and offered a new job ? Giving Lesbian Rogue a more prominent role ? Or possibly something to do with revealing Durkula in some convoluted way I can’t quite see. Maybe something like Haley dying, Durkon going “well this is embarassing, I can’t raise dead in this form, but I can make her a vamp if you like (he, he,he)” and Greenhilt deciding it’s as good a reason as any to aggressively push for his own rez. Cue confrontation. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/852 "2015-03-22T14:07:31Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It seems to me that working alongside people as evil as Crystal and Bozzok is in and of itself evil, even if it is for a good cause. > > Besides, evil prospers when good people do nothing. Haley did something. Except that Haley expected Bozzok to pay to resurrect Crystal (albeit not in the current “you won’t like me when I’m angry” manner). So really, all she thought she was doing was leaving a very messy resignation letter and stealing some stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/853 "2015-03-22T14:18:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I figure Burlew’s already covering the issue of what degree of killing can be justified via Vaarsuvius and the familicide storyline. He doesn’t need to raise the same issues through Haley. I’m not sure that narratively I’d but that. There’s one true difference between Haley assassinating Crystal and V committing genocide and that’s the level of evil involved. V’s act was one of complete, unvarnished evil. For his own purposes he wiped out some large fraction of the black dragon genes in the entire world (Sir? Tiamat on lines 2, 3, 4, 7 and 8!). That sort of evil is - possibly - never redeemable and V has changed character enormously since coming to realize his error and is seeking to be a better person because of it. It’s also possible that his life will eventually be the price for his redemption. Haley’s - let’s call it execution - of Crystal is a smaller, more personal thing. She’s dealt with Crystal in the past. Heck, they’ve disliked each other - as we’ve seen - from the very first moment they ever met. Crystal’s a whack job and Haley is a thief. Neither of them are good company. But Haley knows the stakes. Either for the mission - saving the world - or for personal reasons - she’s coming back after Haley no matter what - Haley decides ‘this person needs to die’. That requires much less - if any - in the way of redemption for the character. Hell, apparently from Haley’s point of view the situation is ‘guilt level: zero’. She told Elan in an effort to be honest with him, not as a confessional. Even that level of honesty is a sign of character growth, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/854 "2015-03-22T14:23:50Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > Except that Haley expected Bozzok to pay to resurrect Crystal (albeit not in the current “you won’t like me when I’m angry” manner). So really, all she thought she was doing was leaving a very messy resignation letter and stealing some stuff. Her “IF” makes it seem like she thought rezzing was unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/855 "2015-03-28T11:02:36Z")
979 is up! ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/856 "2015-03-28T11:03:51Z")
Cleverly done, Haley, and I especially like how you see her thinking before she replies. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/857 "2015-03-28T11:08:44Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/858 "2015-03-28T12:02:49Z")
> [@shantih](#): > > [979 is up!](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0979.html) Link added. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/859 "2015-03-28T12:28:10Z")
Well. SOMEone took some ranks in talk(really fast). ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/860 "2015-03-28T14:13:00Z")
Hehe the Lime boots of speed that started the whole Nemesis situation, saved the day. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=44)