# Order of the Stick - Book 6 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 3, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755 "2014-03-03T16:07:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 71
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1401 "2015-08-13T23:04:44Z")
I still want to know how what Blackwing saw in the rift will play into things, and when. Maybe the gods will discover that they _can’t_ destroy the world. For various reasons and theories. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1402 "2015-08-14T00:22:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So, given that the gods won’t destroy the world, what’s going to stop the clerics from joining Roy’s quest? Obviously something, because again, drama. But what? Maybe the killer vampire that he dragged into their midst? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1403 "2015-08-14T01:45:04Z")
How will Hel vote? Prior to Loki’s speech, I would’ve bet good money that she’d vote against destroying the world, because going against type is kind of Rich’s thing. But now that Loki has stolen that thunder, I’m not so sure. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Shine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr_shine/32/464_2.png) [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1404 "2015-08-14T06:46:57Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > Interesting that the gods talked very circumspectly re: the Snarl. Though they did mention the rifts. Given the Snarl as understood by Shojo’s story being accurate, even being circumspect, it would be a You-Know-What not a You-Know-Who. It’s been obvious for a while the gods are hiding something big, this is more evidence ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1405 "2015-08-14T07:41:54Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > How will Hel vote? Prior to Loki’s speech, I would’ve bet good money that she’d vote against destroying the world, because going against type is kind of Rich’s thing. But now that Loki has stolen that thunder, I’m not so sure. I’m pretty sure she’s not there to vote. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1406 "2015-08-14T10:10:24Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > Heimdall championing the end of the world, and Loki being taking point for saving it is not where I would have bet my money at all. Really. I mean Loki being the trigger of Ragnarok and Heimdal being the gods’ watchman and all it’s quite different than what I’d expect. I’m hoping the next installation goes into their motivations. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1407 "2015-08-14T12:01:25Z")
It makes sense that the watchman of the gods wants to protect the gods from the snarl. It does seem odd that Loki is playing protector of mankind, but he is, perhaps, more carefree and more willing to roll the dice. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1408 "2015-08-14T12:02:02Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > There is a spell called _[Prayer](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prayer.htm)_ but I don’t think that translates backwards. Most people don’t pray for a “+1 luck bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saves, and skill checks”. > > “Dear Lady of the Harvests, this is Janie. Mom says you’re the goddess of farm animals so please let me get a puppy for Harvest Day Giftfest” > _“Eeehh… can’t do prayers for puppies. I can give you a +1 to your attack rolls, how does that work out for you?”_ I think the attack rolls is not the thing most people would pray for. “You want a puppy? Well, here’s a little help when you negotiate with your mother” - +1 on the negotiate check. “You want a puppy? Well, listen to those bushes” - +1 on the listen check for the puppy in the bushes “You want a puppy? Well, Mean Farmer Joe probably won’t get you if you take one from his litter” - +1 save when Farmer Joe throws a hatchet at the little rascal stealing one of his puppies. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1409 "2015-08-14T12:59:31Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > It makes sense that the watchman of the gods wants to protect the gods from the snarl. It does seem odd that Loki is playing protector of mankind, but he is, perhaps, more carefree and more willing to roll the dice. > [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > Given the Snarl as understood by Shojo’s story being accurate, even being circumspect, it would be a You-Know-What not a You-Know-Who. It’s been obvious for a while the gods are hiding something big, this is more evidence Yeah. It’s interesting that there’s a strong implication that while the gods could simply wait until the last gate is destroyed to end the world, some want to just do it now. If both methods are equally safe, and one has a chance of not ending a bunch of lives and having to build a new world, then why debate over it at all? It could be that the pro-apocalypse gods just want to play it safe, rather than potentially get within minutes (mircoseconds from their perspective) of their own doom. Or it could be that there’s something more to this whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1410 "2015-08-14T15:14:58Z")
More like some of the gods just don’t care enough about the world and its inhabitants to see any good reason to put off destroying it. They can just make a new one, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1411 "2015-08-14T15:42:02Z")
If the deities are so casual about destroying/reforming the world and if they supposedly have a little time buffer in which to do it after the Snarl starts to escape… …this sort of throws a spanner into the whole “Dark One uses the Gate to force concessions” plan that Redcloak has going. I mean, absent the other factors, the gods might decide throw the goblinoids a bone rather than destroy and remake the world but the Dark One’s potential threat is more of an annoying Nerf bat than a loaded gun. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1412 "2015-08-14T15:53:54Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > If the deities are so casual about destroying/reforming the world and if they supposedly have a little time buffer in which to do it after the Snarl starts to escape… > > …this sort of throws a spanner into the whole “Dark One uses the Gate to force concessions” plan that Redcloak has going. I mean, absent the other factors, the gods might decide throw the goblinoids a bone rather than destroy and remake the world but the Dark One’s potential threat is more of an annoying Nerf bat than a loaded gun. Not really. The Dark One’s plan wasn’t to use the Snarl to threaten to destroy the world. He was going to use the Snarl to threaten to destroy the gods. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1413 "2015-08-14T16:04:09Z")
Yes, but his means of destroying the gods was via the last Gate, to release the Snarl. But, per Loki, once the last gate is opened and the Snarl starts snarling, you still have a solid 10-15 minutes to slap together a new world-prison. Loki’s argument wasn’t really about saving the world, it was that the Gods weren’t in any real immediate danger from the last Gate so why not see how it plays out? Even if the ritual allows for more focused Snarl killing than just letting it run loose, the gods could (it would seem) say “Eff this, old world gone, new world-prison in place”, making control of the Gate moot. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1414 "2015-08-14T18:14:50Z")
…or that Loki is prone to hyperbole, exaggeration, taunts and trolling. This is Loki making the case after all. > [@Jophiel](#): > > …this sort of throws a spanner into the whole “Dark One uses the Gate to force concessions” plan that Redcloak has going. I mean, absent the other factors, the gods might decide throw the goblinoids a bone rather than destroy and remake the world but the Dark One’s potential threat is more of an annoying Nerf bat than a loaded gun. Ok, maybe the Dark One has a nuclear weapon but c’mon, we can just carpet bomb him if he starts typing in the launch codes… “Don’t be a chicken. You’re afraid of a nuke now, huh? huh?” You are in a tight spot when Loki is arguing your case: some of the gods will automatically vote against you just based on that. Then again, there’s always reverse psychology. Though it’s also possible that the Dark One’s plan was dubious from the get-go. Also metaphors. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1415 "2015-08-14T20:48:21Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Yes, but his means of destroying the gods was via the last Gate, to release the Snarl. > > But, per Loki, once the last gate is opened and the Snarl starts snarling, you still have a solid 10-15 minutes to slap together a new world-prison. Loki’s argument wasn’t really about saving the world, it was that the Gods weren’t in any real immediate danger from the last Gate so why not see how it plays out? > > Even if the ritual allows for more focused Snarl killing than just letting it run loose, the gods could (it would seem) say “Eff this, old world gone, new world-prison in place”, making control of the Gate moot. But the Dark One’s plan was that he would have the ability to teleport the Snarl to any location. So it would no longer be a case of the Snarl running around spending some time consuming the Universe. The Dark One could teleport the Snarl directly into Valhalla where it would attack the Western gods. Redcloak says all this explicitly in _The Start of Darkness_. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1416 "2015-08-14T22:14:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But the Dark One’s plan was that he would have the ability to teleport the Snarl to any location. So it would no longer be a case of the Snarl running around spending some time consuming the Universe. You’re likely correct. By my original way of thinking, the Gates exist to protect the rfits between the Stick World and the demiplane within the Stick World where the Snarl is trapped. Do away with the Stick World and rebuild it, and the Gates no longer have a function since the flaws are no longer there. However, thinking on it, if you warp the Gate to Valhalla (or wherever) then it’s now a rift between the demiplane the Snarl is in and Valhalla. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1417 "2015-08-14T22:18:48Z")
Ah. This explains why the gods _don’t_ simply kick Xykon to the curb, given that he threatens life, the universe and even the their holy posteriors. Hel vetoes unified divine intervention against the Lich, as she would be happy to scoop up all of Thor’s followers if they have not died in battle. Responsible gods, as it were, don’t care too much if the world ends, provided it is on their terms. But there is much the reader doesn’t know and it’s possible that the gods aren’t even aware of the world encased within the snarl. If Xykon were truly the big, ultimate and final bad, the story would end in this book. But that’s not the case. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1418 "2015-08-14T22:41:23Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Ah. This explains why the gods _don’t_ simply kick Xykon to the curb, given that he threatens life, the universe and even the their holy posteriors. Hel vetoes unified divine intervention against the Lich, as she would be happy to scoop up all of Thor’s followers if they have not died in battle. Responsible gods, as it were, don’t care too much if the world ends, provided it is on their terms. But there is much the reader doesn’t know and it’s possible that the gods aren’t even aware of the world encased within the snarl. If Xykon were truly the big, ultimate and final bad, the story would end in this book. But that’s not the case. The gods don’t even have to smite Xykon. All they have to do is tell him that he’s on a useless quest. Redcloak is lying to him and the Snarl is not a source of power that Xykon can use in his plans for world conquest. I’m guessing the gods are afraid to act this directly. We’ve seen it was the gods’ own actions that created the Snarl. Perhaps they know - or at least suspect - that if they acted directly against Xykon and Redcloak (who’s actually the real threat) it would cause an equivalent threat to their existence. So the gods are forced to either let mortals handle the problem or shut down the entire world and start over. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1419 "2015-08-15T00:35:43Z")
I figured that the gods had rules among themselves preventing any sort of joint worldly action that wasn’t unanimous, and that Hel would veto. As it turns out, the situation is even more restrictive: the gods of different pantheons don’t meet together outside of the Godsmoot. > [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](#): > > I bet it will end up being explained in the end, but it’s pretty weird that the gods are delegating this particular decision. We’ve seen the gods having various personal meetings (even among different pantheons), so why don’t they just get into a room themselves and deal with it? I guess maybe they don’t want to include deities like Hel or the Dark One, but since they’d presumably be involved in the remaking of the world anyway, it doesn’t really make sense to do it like this. Rich answered this yesterday: [post 23](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?433947-OOTS-998-The-Discussion-Thread): [INDENT]The gods do not have a neutral meeting ground—or rather they _do_, and this is it. Also, gods of different pantheons do not meet in person anymore, lest any debates or squabbles turn into Snarl Jr. [/INDENT] ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1420 "2015-08-15T03:05:38Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I don’t think they can. > Prayer is a spell. Commune [with the gods] is a spell. It’s, literaly, magic. In very literal terms, the gods are not of this world - they live on a separate plane of existence. A physical plane. Magic can open conduits to this plane, be it for the purpose of communication or travel ; and there are also natural “wormholes” to travel there and back ; but your basic worshipper simply isn’t in contact with their deity. That’s why priests have their place in society. It appears that stick-world gods can, in fact, [listen to mortal conversations.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html) They don’t listen any too well, but they do listen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=70) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=72)