# Order of the Stick - Book 6 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 3, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755 "2014-03-03T16:07:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 78
**Author:** ![ebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@ebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ebb)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1541 "2015-08-28T15:53:04Z")
I think it kind of steps on the drama if the other gods and clerics pitch in, even with buffing. This is Roy vs. Durkula, so to have the decision made by outside forces would make for a lesser story, even if it’s how things would logically play out within the rules. On the other hand, having Durkon reach out from inside and sway the balance of the fight would be entirely in keeping with the story arc, even if it’s just distracting Durkula at a key moment. Roy just had the big reveal that “Durkon” is a priest of Hel intent on destroying the world. It can’t be too long before the other big twist comes out, that this isn’t really Durkon at all, and that the real Durkon is imprisoned inside. This revelation might come about just as Roy’s taking off his head, though. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1542 "2015-08-28T16:01:15Z")
Waitaminnit, now: If the Gods want to make an important decision among themselves, why do they need to involve mortals at all? Why wouldn’t they just meet on Olympus or Valhalla or wherever and take a vote? What’s with the Godsmoot? Something like the Godsmoot, where mortal clerics vote on decisions, could only decide matters of Church policy, as it were – not matters of Divine policy – it could _communicate_ the latter to the faithful, but that’s irrelevant if the world is about to be destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1543 "2015-08-28T16:42:27Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > When Roy was _Resurrected_, [he didn’t remember](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) anything from the actual Seven Heavens (or [whatever the LG afterlife is](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0536.html) these days). He had a memory of the sword technique that he thinks is his idea and that’s it. I’m not saying there’s internet access connecting the two realms. For most people, the trip to the afterlife is one way. But we’ve seen there are numerous exceptions. While Roy doesn’t remember most of his experience in the afterlife, he did return from it back to the mortal world. And returns like that are a relatively common event. Eugene was popping in and out of the mortal world. He said there were some restrictions on what he could do but he was able to communicate from the afterlife. During the time Roy was in the afterlife, we saw a group of evil adventurers use a magic spell to enter the afterlife on a raid. We’ve also seen beings from the afterlife being summoned into the mortal world. So there’s hardly an impenetrable wall separating the mortal world from the afterlife. Take events like these and multiply them by several thousand and it’s inevitable that word from the afterlife is going to get back to the mortal world. Especially if we’re talking about something as momentous as the end of the universe. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1544 "2015-08-28T16:44:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Waitaminnit, now: If the Gods want to make an important decision among themselves, why do they need to involve mortals at all? Why wouldn’t they just meet on Olympus or Valhalla or wherever and take a vote? What’s with the Godsmoot? > > Something like the Godsmoot, where mortal clerics vote on decisions, could only decide matters of Church policy, as it were – not matters of Divine policy – it could _communicate_ the latter to the faithful, but that’s irrelevant if the world is about to be destroyed. There seems to be an issue about neutral ground. If the gods held a meeting in Valhalla, it would presumably give the Northern pantheon some advantage in the debate. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1545 "2015-08-28T16:45:17Z")
Mortal clerics don’t vote on decisions. The gods are voting through their clerics, and this is their way of “just meeting and taking a vote”. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1546 "2015-08-28T16:55:48Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Although the “Thundershield? Why do I know that name?” dwarf [High Priestess of Thor] makes me wonder if Roy will get an unexpected ally somehow… > [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > I doubt it, I think that was just just Rich making an allusion to the forgotten porphecy and possibly Thor’s own casually dismissive attitude to Durkon. Well, remember that the reason Durkon was initially at peace with dying when Malak beat him was because of the Oracle’s prophecy that his return home would be “posthumously”. Durkon’s dying words were, “I get to go home…” What Durkon didn’t know then (besides the whole “turning into a Vampire and being enslaved in your own head” thing) was about the letter from home that all was forgiven and he could return whenever he wished. [Miko lost that letter when she was beaten by the MITD](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html). Now we have a dwarf present at this moot who may know something about Durkon, perhaps about Durkon’s banishment and the letter allowing his return. I don’t know where that takes the plot, but it would be a revelation to inner-Durkon. Perhaps she will mention that at a critical moment, giving inner-Durkon enough resentment/anger to distract vampire-Durkoff somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1547 "2015-08-28T17:05:17Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Eugene was popping in and out of the mortal world. He said there were some restrictions on what he could do but he was able to communicate from the afterlife. Eugene never got past the lobby though. Someone in his circumstances would never speak to anyone from Universe v1.0 You could probably come up with a bunch of easy explanations: The original souls are too “old” at this point and don’t remember the original world at all (which only lasted 27 minutes anyway), the original souls are in some other plane separate from the current universe’s afterlife, the original souls were in some way mind-wiped by the deities, the original souls were recycled/repurposed in some way that gives the deities power perhaps during the creation of the new world (or else why would Hel benefit from them?), etc. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1548 "2015-08-28T17:05:34Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > Also, shouldn’t Hodor’s priest have been blindfolded? I’d think representing your deity at some big conclave counts as “on duty”. I think Hodor’s priest as already blind. A blindfold would be redundant. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1549 "2015-08-28T17:10:33Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > I think Hodor’s priest as already blind. A blindfold would be redundant. I asked that, just to clean up the quote 🙂 You might be right. Going back, [she had white eyes in this comic](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html). I was just looking at the “vote” comic where they all had glowing yellow eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1550 "2015-08-28T17:22:52Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > The original souls are too “old” at this point and don’t remember the original world at all (which only lasted 27 minutes anyway) I just wanted to address this specific point: the destruction of the original universe lasted for twenty-seven minutes. The universe had been in existence for some time before that. How long this was isn’t made clear. That universe existed from the time the gods created it until the Snarl destroyed it. The strip says _“And the gods, blinded by their petty squabbles, did not see the Snarl growing every day… Growing more complex…growing more intelligent… growing more hateful… Until the day it struck.”_ But the strip also refers to the _“newly minted world”_ - which nonetheless had _“millions of souls”_ inhabiting it. So I suppose it’s possible that the original universe only lasted for around a week and everyone that lived in it had been created directly by the gods. But there seems to be an implication that the universe lasted for several mortal generations. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1551 "2015-08-28T17:27:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > There seems to be an issue about neutral ground. If the gods held a meeting in Valhalla, it would presumably give the Northern pantheon some advantage in the debate. I think it’s more about neutral ground _within_ a pantheon, rather than between different pantheons. Thor and Odin probably aren’t too keen on opening the front door to Valhalla and letting characters like Loki or Fenrir in to just wander around. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1552 "2015-08-28T18:39:11Z")
Correction noted. My point really was just that it may have been so long ago that the souls involved forgot or otherwise just stopped connecting themselves to it. Which is a common enough theme when discussing ghosts, souls or what have you. My own theory would be that the souls were re-used in the creation of the new world in some way or another. ---
**Author:** ![Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambrosio_Spinola)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1553 "2015-08-28T18:44:45Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > My own theory would be that the souls were re-used in the creation of the new world in some way or another. Word of Rich says that [mortal souls eventually dissolve into their appropriate Outer Plane](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?434019-After-vs-Life&p=19684300#post19684300) and that’s not necessarily fair, but that’s just how it is. I suspect the denizens of the First World are pretty far along that path by now, if not all entirely gone. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1554 "2015-08-28T19:43:40Z")
That certainly makes sense. And it fits in with the idea that Hel possessing a bunch of souls that would eventually dissolve into her Plane would be way to increase her power. I’m a little amused that people in the thread objected to this. Ashes to ashes, metaphysical ether to metaphysical ether… ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1555 "2015-08-28T21:24:56Z")
By the way, folks, in case you didn’t know there’s a nice new wallpaper of the final panel. [http://www.giantitp.com/comics/Wallpapers.html](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/Wallpapers.html) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1556 "2015-08-28T21:26:33Z")
> [@Garula](#): > > I think one could make the reasonable argument that dying for the sake of preserving the fabric of the universe is an honorable death. True, but the Dwarven slash Viking rules don’t give two shits about “honourable”. You die in battle or you’re a Helfag, period. [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Waitaminnit, now: If the Gods want to make an important decision among themselves, why do they need to involve mortals at all? Why wouldn’t they just meet on Olympus or Valhalla or wherever and take a vote? What’s with the Godsmoot? Something like the Godsmoot, where mortal clerics vote on decisions, could only decide matters of Church policy, as it were – not matters of Divine policy – it could _communicate_ the latter to the faithful, but that’s irrelevant if the world is about to be destroyed. [/QUOTE] Safety and security of the Universe, I reckon. You put the gods in a room, someone says something disparaging about someone else’s mother, before you know it an entire galaxy cluster winks out of existence from a stray Godshot. “Meeting” through unimportant, disposable proxies is safer. That’s how we do it in the shadows anyway, chummer. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1557 "2015-08-28T21:33:21Z")
> [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](#): > > I was thinking the exact same thing. Healing Roy or casting beneficial status effects on him hardly counts as “taking up arms”. Some nut is shooting at you and your family. Some other asshole tosses him ammunition whenever he runs low. Is that “taking up arms” ? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1558 "2015-08-28T22:23:14Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Some nut is shooting at you and your family. Some other asshole tosses him ammunition whenever he runs low. Is that “taking up arms” ? Well, it’d be more like some other asshole is tossing him Band-Aids when he gets hurt. Is THAT “taking up arms”? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1559 "2015-08-28T23:01:24Z")
> [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](#): > > Word of Rich says that [mortal souls eventually dissolve into their appropriate Outer Plane](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?434019-After-vs-Life&p=19684300#post19684300) and that’s not necessarily fair, but that’s just how it is. I suspect the denizens of the First World are pretty far along that path by now, if not all entirely gone. Okay, that works. The story said that the gods waited for centuries after the Snarl destroyed the universe before building a new one so there would have been time for the original souls to have faded before the new ones began showing up. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1560 "2015-08-28T23:26:18Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Well, it’d be more like some other asshole is tossing him Band-Aids when he gets hurt. Is THAT “taking up arms”? In metagame theory, not really. Fighters hit like trucks until they hit -1 hitpoints, at which point they have run out of Fighting ammunition. If you prevent them from going down to -1 hitpoints, they keep hitting like trucks. Ergo Heal really is to be construed as an extended magazine for one of those dreaded Assault PCs :D. But in real life terms : suppose country A invades country B. Country C does not supply fighters to either, but provides medevacs to country A and patches up their combattants, the better to keep them in the fight. If not “taking up arms”, it surely construes aiding and abetting the taking up of arms. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=77) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=79)