# Order of the Stick - Book 6 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 3, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755 "2014-03-03T16:07:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 85
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1681 "2015-09-09T03:50:37Z")
Roy got training in his new maneuver while in heaven, but he wasn’t able to internalize that training and really _learn_ it until he was back in the material world. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1682 "2015-09-09T04:03:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > “Never have a say in what happens to the world” is a legit complaint, but also describes the lives of 99.9999% of everyone who ever lived, while they were still alive. Same with defending yourself, really. Most people – at least in a medieval fantasy milieu – are under regular threat of bandits and the like (not to start mentioning orc armies or trolls or dragons or…). And, since most people aren’t adventurers, they rely on city guards or paladin orders or PCs. Not all that different from relying on various ranks of angels to keep you safe. And I assume that evil adventurers with access to plane shifting are relatively rare. Rarer than bandits or rogue militias or bugbear raiding parties anyway. In any event, it sounds as though Rich was more addressing why people wouldn’t want the world to end (“but you get to go to heaven!”) than arguing that people in heaven generally want to get the heck out. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1683 "2015-09-09T04:52:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Roy got training in his new maneuver while in heaven, but he wasn’t able to internalize that training and really _learn_ it until he was back in the material world. This is correct. [Word of Giant](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?434019-After-vs-Life&p=19680985&viewfull=1#post19680985) \* No, Roy learned \*\*of \*\*a new swordfighting technique in Celestia, which he then mastered after returning to life. Dead souls cannot earn XP, gain levels, learn feats, or increase skills. EDIT: I went back and read #600 and I can see how the dialogue can lead to the belief that Roy had actually mastered the technique. However, note that in panel #3, Horace reminds him he needs to spend a feat on it. If I had to reconcile that strip with what I said above, I would say that if Roy stayed in Celestia, the knowledge of the trick would have quickly faded from his mind. Even if he learned it over and over again, it would never “stick” in his head for more than a day or two.\* ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1684 "2015-09-09T16:32:18Z")
Speaking of feats: Durkon is attacking Roy with his energy drain (I assume, since he didn’t call out a spell name) – Is that going to cost Roy his new Spellsplinter feat? ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1685 "2015-09-09T16:38:53Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Speaking of feats: Durkon is attacking Roy with his energy drain (I assume, since he didn’t call out a spell name) – Is that going to cost Roy his new Spellsplinter feat? Looks like Roy will be[ok for the manuever](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels). His rolls will be harder to make, but he doesn’t lose feats from having negative levels. Spellcasters would lose a spell (as part of the drain, they could still cast Nth level spells), but nobody loses feats. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1686 "2015-09-09T16:44:09Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Speaking of feats: Durkon is attacking Roy with his energy drain (I assume, since he didn’t call out a spell name) – Is that going to cost Roy his new Spellsplinter feat? No - at least, not right away. Instead of taking away levels, energy drain gives you “negative levels.” Each negative level gives you a -1 to most die rolls, and few other penalties. If Roy was a 16th level fighter at the start of the strip, at the end he’s a 16th level fighter with two negative levels. 24 hours after gaining a negative level, if you haven’t cured it through other means, you make a saving throw for each negative level. If you fail, you lose one level permanently, at which point a character can lose access to feats, class abilities, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1687 "2015-09-09T16:52:26Z")
Nah. He’ll just take two “fake” negative levels. Fake in that he won’t really lose anything (much less experience, which IIRC was how it actually worked in Old School DnD), but he’ll get modifiers that will reduce his effectiveness as if he was lower level. From memory, each negative level is -1 to attack, skill checks and saving throws and -5 maximum HP. If you catch more negative levels than you have actual levels, you keel over instantly. Negative levels can be somewhat easily gotten rid of within 24 hours, then they stick for good-er and you need more powerful/expensive spells to wash 'em off. Just checked and in _Pathfinder_ each permanent negative level requires a separate Restoration spell (lvl 4) and 1.000 gp worth of diamond dust. Bottomline : they’re annoying but typically not a huge deal to your average band of murderhobos. It’s just another minor status effect to plan for like having your eyes gouged out, your vocal chords magically dampened, getting deadly poisoned or turned into a very kitschy ratan lawn chair (which happened recently to my party’s fighter). All in a day’s avoiding honest work :). ETA : that was in response to **Jophiel** ’s query obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1688 "2015-09-09T17:05:01Z")
Gotcha. The “-1 effective level” and mention of spell slots made me wonder if it translated to other character skills and abilities. Obligatory, “Back in MY day…” remark about when lose one level _meant_ lose one level (though I think I’d much prefer this system). ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1689 "2015-09-09T17:06:53Z")
So when did Roy take his feat and practice this maneuver? I know it’s been over five years(!) for us since Roy was resurrected, but for the OOTS, it’s been maybe a very busy month. And I don’t think Roy had practiced the feat before the pyramid crawl because he barely remembered it in the "[fight" against Xykon](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html). Since then, Roy has only been in one town and his time there was occupied in looking for a high-level cleric. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1690 "2015-09-09T17:27:47Z")
Roy mentioned that he just barely got his level back from dying to Xykon. Presumably he took the feat when he leveled up, game mechanics being an integral part of Stickworld even when they don’t make [rational sense](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html). ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1691 "2015-09-11T13:19:18Z")
[1004: Climbing Tensions](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1004.html) is up ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1692 "2015-09-11T13:56:37Z")
That’s gonna leave a mark. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1693 "2015-09-11T14:03:19Z")
Nice callback to the bag of tricks (relevant strip is actually linked to in post #1601 here). ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1694 "2015-09-11T14:26:24Z")
As far as taunts go, it was still pretty weak. Roy knows that the Bag of Tricks is garbage. “Still no ranged weapon?” – “Still” since when? A week ago when he was using Haley’s bow? No, Durkon, Roy didn’t buy and become proficient with a ranged weapon in the past five days 😃 Plus, I don’t think that lacking a ranged weapon has ever been anything Roy felt inadequate about, otherwise he would have gotten one. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1695 "2015-09-11T15:18:16Z")
So how’s the math looking for Roy? He’s taken some pounding with the flame strike, energy drain and inflict serious wounds. I’m assuming vampires have pretty serious damage reduction, plus Durkon can heal himself. Does a high level fighter have a realistic shot against a high level vampire cleric with a good armor class? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1696 "2015-09-11T15:20:39Z")
Durkon was casting _Inflict Serious Wounds_ on himself, not Roy. As undead, he “heals” via negative energy. _Inflict X Wounds_ and _Harm_ are touch attacks, so you know he wasn’t casting it at Roy. You can see Malack [doing the same here](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html), casting _Harm_ to repair himself (and Durkon casting _Heal_ to attack Malack in the strip prior). ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1697 "2015-09-11T16:57:02Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > As far as taunts go, it was still pretty weak. Roy knows that the Bag of Tricks is garbage. “Still no ranged weapon?” – “Still” since when? A week ago when he was using Haley’s bow? No, Durkon, Roy didn’t buy and become proficient with a ranged weapon in the past five days 😃 > > Plus, I don’t think that lacking a ranged weapon has ever been anything Roy felt inadequate about, otherwise he would have gotten one. AFAIK it’s the case in 3.5, as it is in Pathfinder, that Roy’s already proficient in any non-exotic weapon he cares to pick up. As to the other though, for sure: Roy’s view so far as combat goes is that if a greatsword isn’t the answer, you’re asking the wrong question. ETA: And since it looks like he’s just impaled right through Durkula and into a solid stone floor, you might concede he has a point. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1698 "2015-09-11T17:05:04Z")
Durkon can just take gaseous form, can’t he? In fact, since I don’t think Roy has any way of affecting Durkon in gaseous form, you’d think that Durkon could just hang out as a cloud until the world ends in another ten minutes, meeting the requirement for him to be present. [Edit: apparently you can still damage someone in gaseous form? Who knew? Well, not me obviously…] ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1699 "2015-09-11T17:13:00Z")
> [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](#): > > ETA: And since it looks like he’s just impaled right through Durkula and into a solid stone floor, you might concede he has a point. Who? Roy, or Durkon? (Ba-dum tish) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755/1700 "2015-09-11T17:14:43Z")
Looks like Durkon has been impaled in a square of sunlight. I wonder if that’s going to be relevant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=84) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-6-discussion-thread/682755.md?page=86)