# Order of the Stick book 7 discussion thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** comic-strips\ **Created:** [February 3, 2020, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438 "2020-02-03T17:48:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2020, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/381 "2020-08-01T19:14:14Z")
Well, as I said, the gods don’t know everything. They didn’t know about the world inside the Snarl; maybe they don’t know what happens to gods when they die. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2020, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/382 "2020-08-01T22:49:57Z")
Zeus just doesn’t match Monster-San at all. Monster-san’s most distinctive features are that he’s incredibly physically strong, he eats everything, he’s horrifically ugly, he’s naive to a fault, he’s friendly, and he doesn’t like girls. Zeus, by contrast, draws his power from lightning and thunder, is very handsome, knows the business of all of the other gods, is extremely short-tempered, and is a notorious skirt-chaser. Really, the only thing they have in common is that they’re both powerful. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/383 "2020-08-02T00:32:16Z")
You’re missing the one that should be obvious to you. The MITD once said that his father ate babies. That’s not a common thing. But one of the few examples of somebody who ate babies was Cronos, father of Zeus. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/384 "2020-08-02T00:38:34Z")
Okay, I went back and checked and it isn’t what I remembered. The MITD didn’t say his father ate babies. He just said he had a problem with babies being eaten. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/385 "2020-08-02T03:17:48Z")
Yup. MITD said (to O-Chul) he didn’t eat the babies Xykon kept trying to feed him. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/386 "2020-08-02T05:46:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Monster-san’s most distinctive features are that he’s incredibly physically strong, Like a god. > [@Chronos](#): > > he eats everything, He’s going through second puberty - he needs calories to grow. Also, Zeus is a passionate god. Right now, his passion is expressed in a love for food. > [@Chronos](#): > > he’s horrifically ugly He’s a shapeshifter, whose external form reflects his internal trauma. > [@Chronos](#): > > he’s naive to a fault, He’s lost his memories, he’s undergone brain damage and severe PTSD, and he’s regressed back to childhood. > [@Chronos](#): > > he’s friendly, Zeus in D&D is Chaotic Good. Note that the OOTS Thor (also CG) was a _lot_ more amicable, patient and level-minded than the Thor of legend. I think we can assume that the gods’ personalities aren’t exactly as they’re described in _Bulfinch’s Mythology._ > [@Chronos](#): > > and he doesn’t like girls Again, he’s regressed to childhood. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/387 "2020-08-02T12:57:21Z")
My point is, once you get into explaining why he’s completely different from his former self because reasons, you can match to any former self at all. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/388 "2020-08-02T13:57:59Z")
Maybe - but who would be cooler than Zeus? It’s the best plot twist I can think of. Remember, this is all just a WAG. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong, but if I’m right I’m fucking _awesome_. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/389 "2020-08-02T18:29:32Z")
MitD being Zeus would negate the importance of The Dark One. The whole schtick is that the Snarl is created from four colors and they only have three colors to keep creating new worlds in which to trap it. The Dark One gives them an opportunity to use four colors again. If Zeus was back with his green quiddity, they don’t actually need The Dark One. Which wrecks Redcloak’s and Durkon’s story arcs. You could handwave some “But now they can super-duper trap it” thing but there’s no way of getting around the fact that a green quiddity makes Redcloak and Durkon significantly less important and I don’t see the story going there. Also, I don’t see why even a reconstituted Zeus would be a child. There’s probably child-_like_ deities but no indication that deities spend any time as actual children. The Dark One didn’t run around for a few hundred goblin generations in diapers. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/390 "2020-08-02T20:20:24Z")
I think it’s going to turn out that 4 quiddities doesn’t quite do the job, and they need five. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/391 "2020-08-02T20:24:23Z")
For all the problems with “Zeus” as the answer to what the MitD is, it’s still the best guess anyone has put forward. It’s got to be something that makes sense and is narratively satisfying purely in relation to the story so far - it’s not going to be something that only hardcore D&D grognards recognize. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/392 "2020-08-02T20:44:17Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > MitD being Zeus would negate the importance of The Dark One. The whole schtick is that the Snarl is created from four colors and they only have three colors to keep creating new worlds in which to trap it. The Dark One gives them an opportunity to use four colors again. If Zeus was back with his green quiddity, they don’t actually need The Dark One. Which wrecks Redcloak’s and Durkon’s story arcs. You could handwave some “But now they can super-duper trap it” thing but there’s no way of getting around the fact that a green quiddity makes Redcloak and Durkon significantly less important and I don’t see the story going there. I don’t know. Maybe Durkon’s mission will end in failure - the Dark One will refuse to help, or will betray the other gods, or will be killed by the Snarl before the new cage is complete. And then, when all hope is lost… we’ll find that another color was there all along. Drama! It could happen. > [@Jophiel](#): > > Also, I don’t see why even a reconstituted Zeus would be a child. There’s probably child- _like_ deities but no indication that deities spend any time as actual children. The Dark One didn’t run around for a few hundred goblin generations in diapers. As I said, my theory is that he’s childlike not because he was reconstituted, but because of the trauma he went through when he was ripped apart by the Snarl. He’s suffering either from PTSD, brain damage or both. He obviously has major memory loss - he doesn’t know what he is or where he comes from, only that he was “always in the jungle”. And his childishness is at some level an affectation: for instance, he referred to O-Chul as “Mr. Stiffly” [even though he knew his real name](https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html). My guess is that he’s blacking out his past and regressing into childhood because he can’t deal with what happened to him. It certainly makes for a good story, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/393 "2020-08-02T21:52:32Z")
The Gods can see the Gates, right? But the Snarl can’t (or can it?) and the MITD famously can’t see or even remember what the Gates are. So, and I know Burlew’s already said the MITD isn’t an offshoot or kid of the Snarl, but doesn’t that mean the MITD likely isn’t a God? Oh, and when did the Snarl come into being? At the beginning, before any world had been created, or right before the beginning of this particular one? The Gods are the embodiment of certain ideas with staying power. The Snarl resulted when different Gods fought with each other and their continuing disagreement and hatred formed a deicidific entity. Which persisted even after the disagreements and argument ended. Which leads to another question. We know Gods need worshippers, faith, and the continued belief in a given idea, in order to exist past a certain limited amount of time, and Gods suffer—to the point of potential nonexistence—if they don’t get any of the above. The overt fighting between Gods has ceased since Snarl formation. So what’s keeping the Snarl afloat? The continued infighting between the adherents of different faiths? The Snarl exists via a different paradigm than the Gods? I’m curious to see where Burlew goes with all of this, as well as laughing at the GITP forumites trying to stay within their ‘No Real Life Events’ discussion prohibition. Oh, and thanks for the link to the Patreon Q and A. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/394 "2020-08-02T22:48:54Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I don’t know. Maybe Durkon’s mission will end in failure - the Dark One will refuse to help, or will betray the other gods, or will be killed by the Snarl before the new cage is complete. And then, when all hope is lost… we’ll find that another color was there all along. Drama! It could happen. I guess. I think Durkon’s mission failing would be extremely unsatisfying though. Thor says that the whole point of Durkon being exiled was to lead him to this moment. Everything we know about him has brought him here… for “Oh, nah, never mind actually this other B-Tier character was the answer all along. Thanks for getting exiled and possessed and all that though!” > [@Alessan](#): > > It certainly makes for a good story, don’t you think? On its own, maybe. As a resolution to the OotS story, certainly not. ---
**Author:** ![blue\_infinity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_infinity/32/2817_2.png) [@blue\_infinity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blue_infinity)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2020, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/395 "2020-08-03T11:30:04Z")
MiTD can’t be a deity. DnD deities are immune to mind-effecting spells, and MiTD got zapped with an enchant by Xykon in Start of Darkness. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2020, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/396 "2020-08-03T13:26:57Z")
[1209](https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1209.html) ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2020, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/397 "2020-08-03T13:32:26Z")
Quite the cliff hanger Burlew has left us. Drew the strip quickly too. Go him. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2020, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/398 "2020-08-03T13:48:16Z")
Guess he failed his saving throw (assuming there is one). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2020, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/399 "2020-08-03T13:48:18Z")
Um… Whoa. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2020, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/400 "2020-08-03T14:19:41Z")
I know he did the “Ultimate Duel Between Clerics” for laughs, and saving throw negates means the spell has no effect, but does that mean the recipient didn’t even realize they’d been hit? Or does it mean, they might have gotten hit, but the spell had no lasting or permanent effect. IOW, would drawing Durkon as having shaken off the effect after a second or two, with no armor scratches, be inconsistent with what the SRD tells us about that spell? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438.md?page=21)