# Order of the Stick book 7 discussion thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** comic-strips\ **Created:** [February 3, 2020, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438 "2020-02-03T17:48:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2020, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/441 "2020-08-11T14:40:29Z")
> [@vislor](#): > > Redcloak already had the spell cast, so there was no chance of stopping the casting of the spell. Having said that, it’s also a Concentration spell I had assumed (again, not being familiar with the nuts and bolts of 3.5e) that you cast the spell for an immediate effect on the first round but, reading the description, I guess you cast it and then concentrate for up to four rounds of imploding hijinks? In which case, Redcloak cast it and, before his next round of actually making Durkon implode, got hit and lost concentration. As for Redcloak failing his concentration save, I guess it’s like 80% of the party improbably failing their Will saves against Vampire Durkon – it happened because we saw it happen regardless of the statistical probability. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2020, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/442 "2020-08-11T14:44:29Z")
AIUI, it’s a Concentration spell because it’s an ongoing effect. 4 rounds of, ‘Save-or-die’, albeit the caster can only target each entity once. The thing is, as a save or die, there’s not supposed to be any halfsies about it. (‘He’s only mostly dead…’) Either the target does messily, or there’s no effect beyond a tickle. Durkon doesn’t look tickled at the end of this strip. But he aint dead either. So Burlew is doing something else. Would she be Power Attacking there? Again, assuming we’re still caring about the rules. Redcloak looks like he can’t really defend himself there so the penalty to hit wouldn’t matter, and it would maximize damage for that Concentration check. What made the Will save hijinks in the last book especially obnoxious was, besides the limited range on the vampires’ Dominate effect, was that Will saves are linked to Wisdom, and if any NPC should make a Will save, it’s a high-level Cleric, like Hilgya. But, Burlew needed the party to slip on a banana peel so that Inner Durkon could have his moment of glory. Which he did, and it looked cool. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2020, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/443 "2020-08-11T14:57:03Z")
I originally read it as Implosion being cast and Redcloak’s yammering happened within the same turn for him (speaking is a free action!) and Minrah acted on that same turn to interrupt the spell. Durkon being warped was artistic license to show the stakes. Again, none of which influences how I enjoy the story; just somethin’ to talk about between strips. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2020, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/444 "2020-08-11T14:57:47Z")
Durkon’s still alive, which means that Redcloak hadn’t even finished casting the spell: immediately on completion of the spell, Durkon either dies or shrugs off the effects. The rule that Burlew’s playing fast-and-loose with here is the length of a round: instead of having a round take six seconds, he’s stretching it out long enough to have an entire conversation during the round, and not only during the round, but during the casting of the spell. As I see it, it goes like this: 1. Redcloak opens combat by beginning to cast the spell. 2. Before he finishes–still on his turn–he takes a free action to carry on a long gloaty conversation with Durkon. 3. He snaps his fingers and is about to complete the spellcasting. 4. Oopsie, here comes Minrah, interrupting his action with an attack of opportunity. 5. Someone else is about to get a turn in initiative. ---
**Author:** ![vislor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vislor/32/5933_2.png) [@vislor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vislor)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2020, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/445 "2020-08-11T14:58:29Z")
So, if you don’t know DND, to sum up, the rules and drama will sometimes be at odds with each other. 🙂 Jophiel: Yes, exactly. First round would key off being attacked, or casting defensively which would be tough to tell if that is happening, and get an attack at someone. Second round to fourth round would be concentration check if hit with damage. And yes, rule of drama will decide if Durkon makes it instead of roll of dice. Gray\_Ghost: Yes as well. Again, artistic license and I do this a lot when describing hits. “The magic starts to take hold of you but with a scream of defiance, you push it away.” Or some such on a made save. Further, yes, it could be that Burlew added in some partial damage. Save or Die spells were seen as the bane of drama and unfair. One missed save and your character, high level or not, is dead. Further, when players roll saves more often than NPCs, statistics will get them that at some point they will fail a save. It’s why there are fewer of those in later editions. (FYI, Implosion in Pathfinder, aka 3.75, is ten points of damage per level, again save negates, and while still bad, 170 points can be survived by some characters.) Power Attack is a feat, which just means you have to take something to be able to do it. It’s not free to everyone. Since she was a guard before a cleric, it’s not a bad assumption that she took it. It’s still a balancing act, imo, when I’m running a game to have drama but follow the rules. I have run groups where the numbers are terrible to impossible for someone to hit or make a save and the same things for another character is trivial. (I had one character have a +5 save and another have +27 of the same save.) My only argument about it being a chance to interrupt is that we have seen an interruption on a spell and it didn’t look like this. And, yes, fun to talk about and I can do so all day! ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2020, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/446 "2020-08-11T15:07:28Z")
Well, the spell did ultimately get interrupted. Note the “fizzle” in the last panel. In this strip, that’s a clear sign the spell failed. ---
**Author:** ![vislor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vislor/32/5933_2.png) [@vislor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vislor)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2020, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/447 "2020-08-11T16:02:57Z")
Good point! So, low Concentration roll, skill, or rule of kewl! Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/448 "2020-08-11T16:26:20Z")
Well, at least we know why ‘No, we’re doing this here’ was so important. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2020, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/449 "2020-08-11T21:23:01Z")
You mean the speculation on the GiantITP forums that it was a John Mullaney reference was baseless? 😮 ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2020, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/450 "2020-08-11T22:16:03Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > a John Mullaney reference reference to what? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2020, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/451 "2020-08-12T01:15:03Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > reference to what? He’s got a bit about how as a kid he was taught by his school safety officer never to let an adult take you to a second location, because most abductions that go to a second location end poorly – so some people speculated that Durkon not wanting to let Redcloak lead him anywhere else was a John Mullaney reference ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2020, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/452 "2020-08-12T01:57:23Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Note the “fizzle” in the last panel. In this strip, that’s a clear sign the spell failed. Also note that Durkon, in the last panel, no longer looks all squidgy. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2020, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/453 "2020-08-12T02:14:11Z")
I thought the “second location” thing was fairly well known. Wouldn’t have attributed it to any particular person. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2020, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/454 "2020-08-12T04:33:20Z")
So in what way is **Implosion** “the spell necessary to prevent you from being resurrected” ? There’d still be remains left, just like any death. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2020, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/455 "2020-08-12T05:19:04Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > So in what way is **Implosion** “the spell necessary to prevent you from being resurrected” ? There’d still be remains left, just like any death. I tried looking it up, but I couldn’t find anything. Best I can come up with is that he planned to put what was left into his bag of holding. If he has the body, no one could resurrect him. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2020, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/456 "2020-08-12T10:55:20Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > So in what way is **Implosion** “the spell necessary to prevent you from being resurrected” ? There’d still be remains left, just like any death. Maybe Burlew was confusing the spell with the 7th level spell Destruction, that explicitly places the remains beyond regular Resurrection? Admittedly, I’d thought of Implosion as just the 9th level version of Destruction that lets you target 4 different creatures, but there are a few significant differences beyond those. Different schools, one’s a death effect, one isn’t, and so on. Maybe Burlew’s Implosion looks like a mini black hole opens up in the victim, and everything organic gets slurped up into it? Course, you’d think their loot would get smooshed too, but we can’t have that. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2020, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/457 "2020-08-12T11:22:28Z")
> [@vislor](#): > > A Concentration check in 3.5 is its own skill, is CON based, and requires a DC of 10 + damage taken to succeed in order to keep the spell. Nitpick. The DC is 10 + damage taken + spell level. So, in this case, 19 + damage taken. Also, if I was Minrah, I’d have both Thor’s might and Divine Power running as well. That gives additional bonuses to Strength (stackable with those of Righteous Might) and increases base attack, thus making Power Attack more effective. And the hammer is dealing more damage, because in 3.5, damage changed as weapon size increased. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2020, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/458 "2020-08-12T11:39:35Z")
Thor’s Might is assumed to be the same thing as Righteous Might, just renamed to be more pious. But yeah, Divine Power (and Divine Favor) would stack with it. But it’s still very surprising to see Minrah using \ Might, because [that’s a 5th-level spell](https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm), and we hadn’t previously seen anything above 3rd level from her, even in high-stakes situations. She’s also a lot bigger than Durkon has been when he’s used Thor’s Might. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2020, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/459 "2020-08-12T11:48:38Z")
Maybe \* cough \* Thor \* cough \* let Minrah have a scroll or two just for this situation, and ensured she passed her caster level checks? That wouldn’t change the bonuses, but duration is dependent on caster level for two of those three spells, so a higher-level scroll last longer. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2020, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/460 "2020-08-12T13:24:25Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > I thought the “second location” thing was fairly well known. Wouldn’t have attributed it to any particular person. This. > [@MHaye](#): > > Maybe \* cough \* Thor \* cough \* let Minrah have a scroll or two just for this situation, and ensured she passed her caster level checks? > > That wouldn’t change the bonuses, but duration is dependent on caster level for two of those three spells, so a higher-level scroll last longer. Yeah, I know it doesn’t really fit the rules of D&D, but I have to think that having the gods take a direct interest in your actions might affect the efficacy of your clerical spells. And… Minrah got a lot of experience from dying and actually talking to her God – again, not in the D&D scheme, but in the story. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438.md?page=24)