# Order of the Stick book 7 discussion thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** comic-strips\ **Created:** [February 3, 2020, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438 "2020-02-03T17:48:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2021, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/902 "2021-04-22T15:15:06Z")
Well that really changes what we thought we knew. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2021, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/903 "2021-04-22T15:24:34Z")
You could probably say that for about half the strips in this comic. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2021, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/904 "2021-04-22T16:56:27Z")
Minrah is rapidly catching up to Belkar as my favorite character. (I liked Belkar when I first read the strip; subsequent rereadings lowered his standing in my estimation; but the arc he’s been on since getting the Mark of Justice lifted has been fantastic, and he’s back at the top.) ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2021, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/905 "2021-04-22T18:04:32Z")
Somebody should paste 1232 into this thread: > [@D & D got woke and that's good because you should have all been playing that way (or not if you didn't prefer))](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114): > > Did we have a thread about this? My summary: Woke roleplaying is basically good, old rulebook style had a lot of shit, feel free to roleplay however YOU like. D & D with evil ugly monsters is shit for story telling and for game play unless you’re a fuckwit or in a hurry (both of which are fine). More nuanced worlds are better. Traditional ugly, evil by nature, “other” baddies were: racist (not being sensitive, the idea of an ugly, inherently evil other race we need to kill because they wil… ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2021, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/906 "2021-04-22T18:40:20Z")
Also, Durkon really rocks. It takes something to stand up to your God and morally shame him. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2021, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/907 "2021-04-22T18:52:18Z")
I’ve always liked Durkon, but he was never really my absolute favorite character. Aside from during the Vampire arc, which really was his time to shine. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2021, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/908 "2021-04-22T19:14:37Z")
Yes, that was his highlight, of course. But i think he was pretty kickass in today’s strip. ---
**Author:** ![blue\_infinity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_infinity/32/2817_2.png) [@blue\_infinity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blue_infinity)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/909 "2021-04-30T13:58:44Z")
1233 - [Concerning Thoughts](https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1233.html) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/910 "2021-04-30T14:02:12Z")
The natural result of the prior strip. And I think we have another strip or two to flesh this out. ---
**Author:** ![blue\_infinity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_infinity/32/2817_2.png) [@blue\_infinity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blue_infinity)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/911 "2021-04-30T14:15:51Z")
Not sure what this is leading to. If they try to negotiate with Redcloak again, it’s hard to see what they can offer him. They can’t get the Gods to change the system, because that only happens with a reset. They can’t promise the humans/dwarves/elves will treat goblins better, because they aren’t the official representatives of those nations, and can’t possibly deliver on such a promise even if Redcloak believed it. Which he won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/912 "2021-04-30T14:26:23Z")
While there may be a valid point about the start the goblins got, etc it’s worth remembering that Redcloak is still evil. He’s still a guy who laughs along with Xykon when people are being tortured or indiscriminately maimed for fun. Turning to violence to right the system may be valid, but Redcloak takes actual pleasure in hurting people. He’s not just a guy with a different viewpoint or life experiences, he’s legitimately evil. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/913 "2021-04-30T14:28:05Z")
Guys, please use spoiler boxes for the first few comments after an update. I don’t follow Durkon’s logic there: Last strip, Thor explained that goblins _aren’t_ created to be victims, everyone has enemies, etc. Redcloak’s motivation is based on a wrong premise. How does Durkon go from that to saying Redcloak is right? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/914 "2021-04-30T14:43:20Z")
I thought Thor explained they the gods created an ecosystem, so they needed to create enemies. And that some of those enemies are people who started in a lousy position is just because Fenris thought it would be amusing. So really, Redcloak is right. ---
**Author:** ![blue\_infinity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_infinity/32/2817_2.png) [@blue\_infinity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blue_infinity)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/915 "2021-04-30T14:45:29Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > How does Durkon go from that to saying Redcloak is right? “But it’s na less wrong fer bein’ from neglect than malice” That’s Durkon’s take on it. Redcloak is right that in that the goblins got the short end of the stick. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/916 "2021-04-30T14:45:33Z")
> [@blue\_infinity](#): > > Not sure what this is leading to. If they try to negotiate with Redcloak again, it’s hard to see what they can offer him. > > They can’t get the Gods to change the system, because that only happens with a reset. > > They can’t promise the humans/dwarves/elves will treat goblins better, because they aren’t the official representatives of those nations, and can’t possibly deliver on such a promise even if Redcloak believed it. Which he won’t. What they can offer him is that the other gods respect his god, and that his god can negotiate from a position of power with the other gods to improve the lot of the goblinoids. I mean, that’s where this is heading, right, that they need the additional quiddity that the Dark One has. ---
**Author:** ![blue\_infinity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_infinity/32/2817_2.png) [@blue\_infinity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blue_infinity)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/917 "2021-04-30T14:56:58Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > What they can offer him is that the other gods respect his god, and that his god can negotiate from a position of power with the other gods to improve the lot of the goblinoids. Respect is nice and all, but I suspect Redcloak is interested in something more concrete. And Redcloak notion of “position of power” would be the Dark One controlling the Snarl’s exit location. But let’s say the gods wanted to agree to whatever demands. What can they do for the goblins, if they can’t change anything while the current world’s in progress? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/918 "2021-04-30T14:58:29Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And that some of those enemies are people who started in a lousy position is just because Fenris thought it would be amusing. Fenris was convinced that _this_ time, “fast breeding, short lived” low power monsters were totally going to dominate despite numerous failures. When they predictably did not, he’d get bored and stop paying attention to them. But I don’t think he intentionally set them up to fail, he just isn’t very good at picking a strong initial stat block for his people. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/919 "2021-04-30T15:12:34Z")
> [@blue\_infinity](#): > > But let’s say the gods wanted to agree to whatever demands. What can they do for the goblins, if they can’t change anything while the current world’s in progress? 4 quatloos says they get offered the world inside the Snarl that Blackwing saw. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/920 "2021-04-30T15:23:00Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > 4 quatloos says they get offered the world inside the Snarl that Blackwing saw. That’s been my suspicion for a while but it all depends on the true nature of the Snarl. I suspect that, like various other elements of that story, we still don’t know the full story there. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/921 "2021-04-30T16:05:25Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > While there may be a valid point about the start the goblins got, etc it’s worth remembering that Redcloak is still evil. He’s still a guy who laughs along with Xykon when people are being tortured or indiscriminately maimed for fun. Turning to violence to right the system may be valid, but Redcloak takes actual pleasure in hurting people. He’s not just a guy with a different viewpoint or life experiences, he’s legitimately evil. That may be true, but as Elan’s angel said all the way back in Strip 68: > [@Elan's Angel](#): > > But his evil is the direct result of the environment in which he was raised. Had it been you that had been raised by [goblins who were then slaughtered in front of you by the Sapphire Guard], wouldn’t you have ended up evil? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438.md?page=47)