# Order of the Stick book 7 discussion thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** comic-strips\ **Created:** [February 3, 2020, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438 "2020-02-03T17:48:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/922 "2021-04-30T16:17:39Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That may be true, but as Elan’s angel said all the way back in Strip 68: Would you? Lots of people have some atrocity committed on them as children. Most don’t grow up to delight in committing torture on the helpless. No free passes for a bad childhood, sorry. I’m not even saying that _all_ goblins are evil. But Redcloak is absolutely evil. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/923 "2021-04-30T16:32:04Z")
Clearly - I mean, RightEye went through the same trauma Redcloak did and he was a decent guy. But Redcloak isn’t evil in a vacuum, that’s all I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/924 "2021-04-30T16:35:54Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > But Redcloak isn’t evil in a vacuum, that’s all I’m saying. That and 50gp will buy you a Potion of Healing. Which you’ll need when Redcloak throws a pie of acid beetles in your face because he and Xykon think it’s hilarious to watch your skin painfully melt off. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/925 "2021-04-30T16:43:07Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > And that some of those enemies are people who started in a lousy position is just because Fenris thought it would be amusing. > > Fenris was convinced that _this_ time, “fast breeding, short lived” low power monsters were totally going to dominate despite numerous failures. When they predictably did not, he’d get bored and stop paying attention to them. But I don’t think he intentionally set them up to fail, he just isn’t very good at picking a strong initial stat block for his people. I agree. I feel Thor could easily have refuted the charge that the Goblins were created as cannon fodder. They apparently were created with the intent that they would succeed. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/926 "2021-04-30T16:51:28Z")
> [@blue\_infinity](#): > > Not sure what this is leading to. If they try to negotiate with Redcloak again, it’s hard to see what they can offer him. > > They can’t get the Gods to change the system, because that only happens with a reset. > > They can’t promise the humans/dwarves/elves will treat goblins better, because they aren’t the official representatives of those nations, and can’t possibly deliver on such a promise even if Redcloak believed it. Which he won’t. I feel this strip is more like the recent strip where they acknowledged that their past abuse of Elan was wrong and Elan acknowledged his past incompetence was also wrong. In this strip, Roy realizes his past indifference to the goblins and other unfavored races was wrong. This is character development not plot advancement. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/927 "2021-04-30T16:54:28Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I agree. I feel Thor could easily have refuted the charge that the Goblins were created as cannon fodder. They apparently were created with the intent that they would succeed. For that matter, it feels as though the other pantheons shouldn’t be at fault at all. If Fenris created the goblins and did a shitty job of tending to his people, what blame do the Southern and Eastern pantheons have? They had nothing to do with goblins being created. Does Fenris (or the Dark One, for that matter) take time to advocate for elves or kobolds or flumphs? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/928 "2021-04-30T18:25:09Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > For that matter, it feels as though the other pantheons shouldn’t be at fault at all. If Fenris created the goblins and did a shitty job of tending to his people, what blame do the Southern and Eastern pantheons have? They had nothing to do with goblins being created. Does Fenris (or the Dark One, for that matter) take time to advocate for elves or kobolds or flumphs? They have none, if gods only have responsibilities toward their own race and are fine with members of other races getting slaughtered because they have stupid gods. If the gods should look out for the interests of all sentient beings, even those that don’t worship them, the gods have been falling down. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/929 "2021-04-30T19:30:52Z")
I get the impression that it’s more of the former than the latter. A world starts, the gods populate it with whatever “people” they want to make that time around using the souls they have from the former world, they try to shepherd their souls/people into becoming stronger until they get recycled back into the outer planes. There doesn’t seem to be much attempt to convert other gods’ followers, much less anything like crusades or jihad based on spreading a god’s influence. All the gods of a pantheon have general interest in their shared core races, but if someone makes their followers a group outside the core (Fenris and goblins, Tiamat and kobolds, etc) then they’re on their own with it and each deity more or less tends to their own garden. You don’t even see Thor trying to convert Loki’s dwarven followers or vice versa. Then the world falls apart, everyone gets their chips back (more or less) and they do it again. If anyone should have been worried about the goblins, it would be Fenris who has apparently used a number of his starting souls on a bunch of guys who are now going to The Dark One. Even then, apparently new demigods are common and they just don’t last past the world coming apart so maybe he expected to get his souls back then. For the most part though, it seems to be about making sure the souls stay healthy enough to power the gods and run until the next cycle. Which has worked tens or hundreds of millions of times now. Arguably, it was the gods’ “neglect” which allowed for a new quiddity to be created and potentially end the cycle. Had Fenris been a good monster-dad, no Dark One, no purple juice, no sealing off the Snarl. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/930 "2021-04-30T19:40:37Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > For the most part though, it seems to be about making sure the souls stay healthy enough to power the gods and run until the next cycle. Which has worked tens or hundreds of millions of times now. Arguably, it was the gods’ “neglect” which allowed for a new quiddity to be created and potentially end the cycle. Had Fenris been a good monster-dad, no Dark One, no purple juice, no sealing off the Snarl. Plot twist: Odin, wisest of the gods, foresaw that a neglectful deity would be required for a new quiddity to arise, so he switched places with @Fenris and created the goblins, then neglected them. This way the purple quiddity would arise. That’s the real reason why Odin has been so strange this time around - he’s actually @Fenris, mind-altered by the real Odin to act like a reasonable but not perfect approximation of the real Odin. …OK, probably not. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/931 "2021-04-30T20:03:50Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > …OK, probably not. You’re going to be so smug when it is, though! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/932 "2021-04-30T20:11:42Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > There doesn’t seem to be much attempt to convert other gods’ followers, much less anything like crusades or jihad based on spreading a god’s influence. All the gods of a pantheon have general interest in their shared core races, but if someone makes their followers a group outside the core (Fenris and goblins, Tiamat and kobolds, etc) then they’re on their own with it and each deity more or less tends to their own garden. We know that gods can get [snippy](https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html) about gods from other pantheons intruding too much on their turf. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/933 "2021-04-30T20:12:23Z")
Yeah, it seems bizarre to me too that what Durkon took away from that conversation was that Redcloak was right. Redcloak’s argument is that the gods have had it in for the Goblins for the start, only creating them to be canon fodder for the other races. Thor made it pretty clear that what happened was that the different gods were trying different strategies for their different races, and that Fenris tried a fast multiplying but lower powered race, but it didn’t work out. The gods never directly help out their races, so expecting Fenris to do so doesn’t make a lot of sense. The races have to get levels in cleric or similar and start getting any help from their gods. Durkon is only able to get help from Thor because of his spells. Durkon also knows all that stuff about the gods domains, and how the whole cosmos would fall apart if the gods ever intruded on the domains of the other, so he knows why no one else could step in and help. Redcloak may found some aspect of truth in the idea that the Goblins had it worse than the other guys, but he’s completely wrong about why. It’s like seeing the right symptoms, but diagnosing the wrong disease. It’s not just, as Durkon says, advocating the wrong treatment. I was genuinely surprised at how Durkon framed all of this. It really did seem as odd to say to me as it likely did to Roy. If he’d said “Redcloak does have a point.” and then argued “he’s mostly wrong, but there is a legitimate grievance,” it would have made more sense to me. But, hey, Durkon clearly thinks differently than I do. That’s not inherently bad. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/934 "2021-04-30T22:33:38Z")
I don’t know exactly what Fenris could have done after the fact, but Thor’s remark that Fenris got bored and ignored the goblins for his more “fun” monsters implies that Fenris had _some_ options to neglect. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2021, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/935 "2021-04-30T22:55:47Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > But, hey, Durkon clearly thinks differently than I do. That’s not inherently bad. I think like Durkon does, at least in this instance. Indifference to systematic suffering and systematic injustice is never virtuous, doubly so when the 2 of them are combined. Yes, each God has their own fish to fry. Doesn’t make it right. Is Redcloak evil? Sure. Rich Burlew: “There are people in this world who are driven to evil because of what their lives have forced them to endure. Xykon is not one of these. Redcloak might be, though.” Thor (and maybe BigT) could reasonably ask what the alternative is. BigT: “The gods never directly help out their races, so expecting Fenris to do so doesn’t make a lot of sense. The races have to get levels in cleric or similar and start getting any help from their gods.” I don’t think the mechanics are that clear cut: I suspect there would be scope for Fenris to put his thumb on the scale as it were, if he cared at all. Which he doesn’t, and which Durkon disapproves of. Agreed though that me, BigT, Thor, and Durkon are arguing different perspectives more than absolutes. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2021, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/936 "2021-05-05T07:48:55Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I think like Durkon does, at least in this instance. Indifference to systematic suffering and systematic injustice is never virtuous, doubly so when the 2 of them are combined. My thoughts exactly. > [@Jophiel](#): > > He’s still a guy who laughs along with Xykon when people are being tortured or indiscriminately maimed for fun. Redcloaks’s undeniably evil. But Durkon is not saying he isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2021, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/937 "2021-05-05T13:13:31Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Redcloaks’s undeniably evil. But Durkon is not saying he isn’t. Yeah, but maybe it’s a point worth explicitly bringing up before getting into “Well, maybe Hitler has a few good points about the fairness of post-WWI reparations” territory. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2021, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/938 "2021-05-05T23:11:50Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I think like Durkon does, at least in this instance. Indifference to systematic suffering and systematic injustice is never virtuous, doubly so when the 2 of them are combined. Minrah is easily my favorite character. I’m less enamored with Durkon, I think because I share his frustration with the moral failings of the wider world. For all his bravery and morality, Durkon is not especially effectual, something of which he’s painfully aware. Points to Durkon for understanding himself (and props to Evan for growing in his self-awareness). I shouldn’t want to be like Durkon; I’d rather be like O’Chul. There’s a character who understands better about how to move the ball forward. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2021, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/939 "2021-05-06T13:33:48Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I shouldn’t want to be like Durkon; I’d rather be like O’Chul. There’s a character who understands better about how to move the ball forward. He’s definitely my favorite depiction of a Paladin. He is everything a good Paladin should be. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2021, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/940 "2021-05-06T15:05:16Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > I don’t know exactly what Fenris could have done after the fact, but Thor’s remark that Fenris got bored and ignored the goblins for his more “fun” monsters implies that Fenris had _some_ options to neglect. True. But I think there’s a substantial difference between the goblins being abandoned by their creator, who had intended them to thrive, and the goblins being created with no intent except to serve as cannon fodder for other races. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2021, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438/941 "2021-05-06T15:07:10Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Minrah is easily my favorite character. I’m less enamored with Durkon, I think because I share his frustration with the moral failings of the wider world. For all his bravery and morality, Durkon is not especially effectual, something of which he’s painfully aware. Points to Durkon for understanding himself (and props to Evan for growing in his self-awareness). Burlew has pointed out that Durkon is a natural follower. This is one of the reasons Burlew added Minrah to the cast; he wanted to force Durkon into a position where he had to show leadership. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438.md?page=46) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-7-discussion-thread/847438.md?page=48)