# Order of the Stick General Discussion Thread (Open Spoilers and Speculation) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 2, 2009, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096 "2009-02-02T07:39:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/341 "2009-03-20T19:01:43Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > he raised the dragon back to half-life for no purpose other than inflicting emotional harm upon it Not quite. Remember that the original reason the dragon was after V and V’s family was because V killed her son. There’s a decent chance that after V dispatches the dragon, some other dragon is going to declare revenge and try to do the same thing to V’s family. V put a stop to that possibility in the most ruthless, straightforward, evil way imaginable. (Although, since black dragons aren’t shiny, is killing them all actually a bad thing in a D&D world? :p) ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/342 "2009-03-20T19:10:02Z")
**Bosstone** , I don’t think “what would Miko approve of?” is a good barometer for good and evil. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/343 "2009-03-20T19:55:06Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > Well, that was pretty much an act of pure evil on an unimaginable scale. I disagree. While it certainly wasn 't Good, it was Neutral rather than Evil. Turnabout is fair play. Arguably, V is being merciful: the dragon was going to Soul Bind V’s children; V isn’t going that far. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/344 "2009-03-20T20:00:11Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I disagree. While it certainly wasn 't Good, it was Neutral rather than Evil. Turnabout is fair play. Arguably, V is being merciful: the dragon was going to Soul Bind V’s children; V isn’t going that far. Also, he just elimated scores of powerful, chaotic evil creatures from the world. If he’d taken the time to hunt down each one of them individually, he’d be considered one of the greatest heroes that world has ever seen. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/345 "2009-03-20T20:00:17Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I disagree. While it certainly wasn 't Good, it was Neutral rather than Evil. Turnabout is fair play. Arguably, V is being merciful: the dragon was going to Soul Bind V’s children; V isn’t going that far. It’s not evil to kill somebody else’s family, just so long as they try to kill yours first? Granted, this is D&D, which has always had a certain serial-killer quality, but still… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/346 "2009-03-20T20:07:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Ah, well that explains that. Sort of. While raising a whole slew of other, profoundly awkward questions. > A giant clam is a living, corporeal creature. I wonder how that’d work out. It could be worse. There’s an official WotC module where the main villain is a particularly carnal red dragon, and almost all of the monsters encountered are half-dragons. Including a gelatinous cube. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/347 "2009-03-20T20:12:14Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > Well, that was pretty much an act of pure evil on an unimaginable scale. (dragon. scale. snerk.) I mean, the dragon was already dead, and V had won; the original purpose, V appears to have forgotten, was “saving my family”. But, despite already having his victory, he raised the dragon back to half-life for no purpose other than inflicting emotional harm upon it, by killing other beings V had no personal quarrels with and, indeed, didn’t even know existed. > > I dunno if V can pull himself back from this one. By giving in to the impulse to inflict pain on the dragon, he’s pretty much ceded control over to the spirits bound to him. I’m not sure he’ll be able to swing it back. > > It’s also pretty clear that he didn’t fully consider the consequences of this action; the dragons that just dropped dead surely also had friends and non-blood relatives (there’s no indication that the spell affected, for example, the spouses of those dragons actually related by blood to Ol’ Blackie) who’ll be interested in why their family member or dear chum just dropped dead. And there’ll be more than just one pissed-off grand-dragonparent (even more powerful than the one V just faced) wondering why the grandkids just dropped dead; there could be, what, a quarter, a third, even half the world’s dragon population hunting for V? Of course, they have that Oracle to tell them what happened… > > This was a very bad decision. Again, I reiterate that I have not played D&D in years, but is there still such a thing as the goddess of evil dragons, Tiamat? How do you think she’s going to like having a sizeable number of her worshippers eliminated from the face of the earth in one massive strike? Think she might feel obligated to track down the source of such potent arcane power? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/348 "2009-03-20T20:14:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It could be worse. There’s an official WotC module where the main villain is a particularly carnal red dragon, and almost all of the monsters encountered are half-dragons. > > Including a gelatinous cube. I’m dying to know how this hybrid manifested. What does a half-dragon/half-gelatinous cube look like? ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/349 "2009-03-20T20:15:28Z")
Tiamat, Tiamat… gosh, that name sounds familiar. Can you mean the Oracle’s five-dragon-headed patron? Yes, I know who Tiamat is in D&D terms. Just pointing out that we have seen her before… ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/350 "2009-03-20T20:15:54Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > I’m dying to know how this hybrid manifested. What does a half-dragon/half-gelatinous cube look like? Like scaley blancmange? ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/351 "2009-03-20T20:18:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It could be worse. There’s an official WotC module where the main villain is a particularly carnal red dragon, and almost all of the monsters encountered are half-dragons. > > Including a gelatinous cube. What’s it called? I once DMd a campaign where, about a quarter of the way through, they killed a black dragon visiting some kuo-toa. The fight involved killing a lot of acid-resistant tadpole-ish things. Just over half-way through the campaign, they were accosted by an outsize minotaur - with black, scaly skin. The dead dragon’s _oldest_ child. ---
**Author:** ![Woeg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Woeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Woeg)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/352 "2009-03-20T20:21:48Z")
> [@Hal\_Briston](#): > > Wow…I’d hate to be taken away by a Calgon. Dr Pepper, meet monitor. Touche, **Hal Briston**! ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/353 "2009-03-20T20:23:10Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > Well, that was pretty much an act of pure evil on an unimaginable scale. (dragon. scale. snerk.) I mean, the dragon was already dead, and V had won; the original purpose, V appears to have forgotten, was “saving my family”. But, despite already having his victory, he raised the dragon back to half-life for no purpose other than inflicting emotional harm upon it, by killing other beings V had no personal quarrels with and, indeed, didn’t even know existed… Actually, I just assumed that V needed the dragon at least half-alive for the epic spell to work. Not that it was (directly) done to torment the dragon. > [@Ogre](#): > > Again, I reiterate that I have not played D&D in years, but is there still such a thing as the goddess of evil dragons, Tiamat? How do you think she’s going to like having a sizeable number of her worshippers eliminated from the face of the earth in one massive strike? Think she might feel obligated to track down the source of such potent arcane power? Tiamat actually exists in the OotS world – go back and check when the Oracle is getting ready to hand out prophecies [here](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html). And of course, she’s also one of the [western gods](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html). It is sort of implied that Tiamat is the Oracle’s mommy with the glandular problem, who gave him the job out of nepotism. ---
**Author:** ![Woeg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Woeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Woeg)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/354 "2009-03-20T20:23:33Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > 😃 > > “This evil beast is infamous for its greed and shellfishness.” Damnit, I really should finish the thread before cleaning off my monitor! ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/355 "2009-03-20T20:27:57Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > Tiamat, Tiamat… gosh, that name sounds familiar. Can you mean the Oracle’s five-dragon-headed patron? > > Yes, I know who Tiamat is in D&D terms. Just pointing out that we have seen her before… I don’t have the annotated list of characters in front of me. I forgot, man. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/356 "2009-03-20T21:57:57Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > It’s not evil to kill somebody else’s family, just so long as they try to kill yours first? Somewhat a cross-post from ENWorld, but in D&D ‘Not Good’ is not the same as ‘Evil’. In D&D there is the third, Neutral, way. V’s act is clearly not Good, but it is not Evil. The dragon’s descendants that died are simply dead. Not tortured. And note that some of them survived - not all have Xs for eyes - like the dragon next to the eggs and the flying dragon in the middle of the 3rd from bottom row. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/357 "2009-03-20T22:01:20Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > . . . But, despite already having his victory, he raised the dragon back to half-life for no purpose other than inflicting emotional harm upon it, by killing other beings V had no personal quarrels with and, indeed, didn’t even know existed. . . Well, the dragon had complained about being taken away from her son and husband. Apparently, she was enjoying the afterlife with relatives. Now she has more relatives to enjoy it with. ---
**Author:** ![Silophant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a698b9/32.png) [@Silophant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silophant)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/358 "2009-03-20T22:20:54Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Somewhat a cross-post from ENWorld, but in D&D ‘Not Good’ is not the same as ‘Evil’. In D&D there is the third, Neutral, way. V’s act is clearly not Good, but it is not Evil. The dragon’s descendants that died are simply dead. Not tortured. And note that some of them survived - not all have Xs for eyes - like the dragon next to the eggs and the flying dragon in the middle of the 3rd from bottom row. If you look closely, the one next to the eggs does have X eyes. I don’t have enough resolution to say for sure about the other, but I think it’s safe to say that all 63 of the pictured dragons died. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/359 "2009-03-20T22:29:08Z")
> [@Silophant](#): > > If you look closely, the one next to the eggs does have X eyes. Hmmm… I double-checked, and I’m not so sure you’re correct. ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/360 "2009-03-20T22:30:56Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > Well, the dragon had complained about being taken away from her son and husband. Apparently, she was enjoying the afterlife with relatives. Now she has more relatives to enjoy it with. But if she’s undead, she won’t get to enjoy hanging out with them. I thought that was going to be the particularly cruel part- just leaving the head alive somewhere- like Prometheus bound, without the torture. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=19)