# Order of the Stick General Discussion Thread (Open Spoilers and Speculation) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 2, 2009, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096 "2009-02-02T07:39:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/381 "2009-03-21T04:02:17Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Succubi are devils, not demons. At least, they are now, under 4th Ed rules. I’m not sure if that makes them LE now, though. In 3rd Succubi are demons (CE), Erynes (fallen angels) are devils (LE). ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/382 "2009-03-21T04:23:21Z")
Whoaboy. Wonder what the husband and kids will think of THAT? (And is that minotaur-dragon a reference to the half-dragon, half-gelatinous cube someone referred to earlier?) (And is it possible to create Familicide using the 3E Epic Handbook rules for spell creation?) (And for the first time in three comics, the OOTS forum is NOT down! Woo!) (Hi, Opal!) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/383 "2009-03-21T05:50:51Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Not LG; Lawful. It’s in “Origin of PCs” and in the game, IIRC. > > A [cleric’s](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/Classes/cleric.htm) alignment must be within one step of his deity’s. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/384 "2009-03-21T05:56:38Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Something can be logical and effective and still be morally wrong. That point wasn’t countering the “evil” part, just the “because he was upset” part. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > As to the second point, that argument is like the hypothetical of the paladin wandering through town detecting evil and then killing everyone who shows up as evil. It’s not a good act. Even if every black dragon is a cruel vicious monster the world would be better off without, it still has the same right to live unmolested as everybody else does. In the \*real \*world, yes, I agree. But this is D’nD, ferGary’sSake - the whole name of the freaking game comes from the idea that evil dragons (and their hoards) are fair game for “our heroes”. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > As a side note, btw, not relevant to the strip, 4th edition has gotten rid of the “chromatic dragons are always evil/metallic dragons are always good”. Now, chromatic dragons are “usually” evil, and metallics are “usually” good. I did not know that. But like you said, not relevant. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/385 "2009-03-21T05:59:01Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > In 3rd Succubi are demons (CE), Erynes (fallen angels) are devils (LE). I know. I was just trying to say that things change. Certainly, by her actions, I’d say Sabine was CE - the Linear Guild aren’t known for keeping their word, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/386 "2009-03-21T06:04:44Z")
> [@](#): > > But isn’t that what PCs in D&D do? Replace “town” with “goblin village,” and you have about 75% of every D&D adventure ever played. Is it only an evil act if the population is primarily human? Only if you have a really bad DM who lets the players get away with alignment violations left and right. Taking out a goblin warcamp that’s preparing to attack a village is a good act, but taking out a goblin village just because they’re goblins is evil. ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/387 "2009-03-21T06:18:24Z")
how about taking out a goblin village because of the phat lewt? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/388 "2009-03-21T06:31:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Only if you have a really bad DM who lets the players get away with alignment violations left and right. Unless you’re a non-evil divine spellcaster, it really shouldn’t matter. As long as you don’t give anyone a reason to ping you with Detect Evil and don’t have a deity with a weak stomach looking over your shoulder, noone needs to know you slaughter innocent goblins for a living, as long as you don’t act like a genocidal loonie when you get back to town. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/389 "2009-03-21T08:28:27Z")
> [@shijinn](#): > > how about taking out a goblin village because of the phat lewt? Well then, it’s perfectly justifiable… as long as you do it in a section of the rules where you’re not talking about alignment. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/390 "2009-03-21T08:53:53Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I know. I was just trying to say that things change. Certainly, by her actions, I’d say Sabine was CE - the Linear Guild aren’t known for keeping their word, for instance. But they’re loyal to each other, within limits. And Nale is definitely LE - after all, he’s Elan’s Opposite. ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/391 "2009-03-21T09:38:20Z")
Something that came into my mind… Vaarsuvius is right now in his home town in the Elven lands, which (according to the globe we can see in the strip) appear to be located on the northern part of the _Western_ continent. The Western continent… And Tiamat is part of the Western pantheon. If I am not mistaken, the gods of the OotS-verse are allowed to intervene directly regarding things that happen in the areas under their immediate jurisdiction. So, Vaarsuvius has killed/familicided/genocided a big bunch of black dragons while in the home turf of the Mother Goddess of Chromatic Dragons… :smack: …for some reason I have a feeling of foreboding. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/392 "2009-03-21T19:23:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Secondly, black dragons are chaotic evil _by definition_. While Rich may lampshade the alignment rules, he doesn’t seem to break them at all, so I assume that still goes. By that reading, _every_ black dragon is a cruel, vicious monster the world would be better off without, _bar none_. Removing them is a good act in itself, within the rather B&W morality of an alignment system like D’nD’s. None of this is true, nor does it make sense. Just because something has a tendency toward evil does not mean that it deserves to die. Therefore, rampant destruction of creatures (even if evil) without a clear case warranting their deaths is a chaotic act, and also evil because of the extraordinary extent of the vile, vengeful motivation behind the “familicide.” V’s actions are undoubtedly Chaotic Evil, regardless of the specificity of the alignments of V’s victims. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/393 "2009-03-21T19:26:54Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But this is D’nD, ferGary’sSake - the whole name of the freaking game comes from the idea that evil dragons (and their hoards) are fair game for “our heroes”. That’s not true, unless the “heroes” are not lawful at least. A lawful character needs a clear sense of justice to be fulfilled by killing something. Wanton destruction of evil creatures who had basically been minding their own business is NOT a lawful act. ---
**Author:** ![Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d9b06d/32.png) [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichini_Sanshigo)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/394 "2009-03-21T19:58:17Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > None of this is true, nor does it make sense. > > Just because something has a tendency toward evil does not mean that it deserves to die. Therefore, rampant destruction of creatures (even if evil) without a clear case warranting their deaths is a chaotic act, and also evil because of the extraordinary extent of the vile, vengeful motivation behind the “familicide.” V’s actions are undoubtedly Chaotic Evil, regardless of the specificity of the alignments of V’s victims. Oh _thank you_! I get so sick of the “Always Chaotic Evil justifies anything bad that anyone else does to the creature” argument. Here’s a novel thought: judge individuals on what they do, not on what some manual says they are. I should add the disclaimer that I approach this from the POV of someone who’s reading OotS for the plot. I couldn’t care less about the game mechanics aspect of it. As convenient as the alignment chart is for gaming purposes, when it comes to dealing with how sentient beings actually act, its utility is limited. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/395 "2009-03-21T20:04:08Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > None of this is true, nor does it make sense. > > Just because something has a tendency toward evil does not mean that it deserves to die. Therefore, rampant destruction of creatures (even if evil) without a clear case warranting their deaths is a chaotic act, and also evil because of the extraordinary extent of the vile, vengeful motivation behind the “familicide.” V’s actions are undoubtedly Chaotic Evil, regardless of the specificity of the alignments of V’s victims. Traditional dragons in D’nD don’t have a “tendency” towards evil, they live and breath it. Black dragons are described as the cruelest and most vicious type, too. D’nD alignments aren’t just suggestions. And once again, V. isn’t (or at least isn’t admitting) doing the spell out of vengeance, but out of defence for his family (As he sees it). Personally, I’m totally siding with the Elf, here. [QUOTE=Knorf] That’s not true, unless the “heroes” are not lawful at least. A lawful character needs a clear sense of justice to be fulfilled by killing something. Wanton destruction of evil creatures who had basically been minding their own business is NOT a lawful act. [/QUOTE] Oh, for fuck’s sake. They’re monsters, people. They need killing. Moral relativism is all very well, but we’re talking about black dragons, here. Vicious critters who ambush people, eat them and sit on mounds of their treasure. I blame too many years of antiheroes. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/396 "2009-03-21T20:07:21Z")
> [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](#): > > Here’s a novel thought: judge individuals on what they do, not on what some manual says they are. Like slowly torturing overpowered, defenceless juvenile elves before killing them and trapping their souls for eternity? or are we talking about the other dragons? There, V’s being pre-emptive, but again - dragons! Alien reptiles. They’re not people. They\* eat \*people. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/397 "2009-03-21T20:07:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Unless you’re a non-evil divine spellcaster, it really shouldn’t matter. This may come as a surprise, but many folks don’t subscribe to an “as long as you get away with it” system of morality. And many DMs flat out don’t allow any evil PCs in their campaigns. The players are supposed to be the heroes, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/398 "2009-03-21T20:22:08Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > This may come as a surprise, but many folks don’t subscribe to an “as long as you get away with it” system of morality. Sure, but that has nothing to do with telling people off for alignment violations. > [@](#): > > And many DMs flat out don’t allow any evil PCs in their campaigns. The players are supposed to be the heroes, after all. I think it has more to do with bad players who can’t play an evil character without using it as an excuse to betray the party. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/399 "2009-03-21T21:25:25Z")
Here’s a question. The female magic user who knew the spell. Whose minion was she? Purple. I think that’s CEdrick. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/400 "2009-03-21T22:03:56Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Traditional dragons in D’nD don’t have a “tendency” towards evil, they live and breath it. Black dragons are described as the cruelest and most vicious type, too. D’nD alignments aren’t just suggestions. You apparently have reading comprehension issues. > [@](#): > > And once again, V. isn’t (or at least isn’t admitting) doing the spell out of vengeance, but out of defence for his family (As he sees it). Annihilating every dragon related to the ancient one who threatened his family isn’t vengeance? You’re a very confused person. > [@](#): > > Oh, for fuck’s sake. They’re monsters, people. They need killing. I’m very, VERY glad I never played D&D with you. Unless, that is, you are emphatically roll-playing a Chaotic Neutral persona right now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=21)