# Order of the Stick General Discussion Thread (Open Spoilers and Speculation) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 2, 2009, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096 "2009-02-02T07:39:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/421 "2009-03-22T17:30:42Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And Nale is definitely LE - after all, he’s Elan’s Opposite. I’ve been reading the strip for more than a year now, and just realized where Nale’s unusual name came from. I _gotta_ pay more attention. ---
**Author:** ![Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hero_From_Sector_7G)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/422 "2009-03-22T17:36:43Z")
I would be willing to pay lots of money to sit down with Burlew as my DM. He should consider it as a side business. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/423 "2009-03-22T17:42:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Good characters don’t commit genocide. Killing off a bunch of black dragons isn’t genocide. It’s pest control!\* [QUOTE=Terrifel] How do metallic dragons amass their hoards, anyway? [/QUOTE] By working for it or as gifts from other good-aligned peoples, mostly, although bronzes also specialise in salvaging sunken treasure and pearl diving. _Not_ (and I quote the 2nd Ed _MM_) by “[capturing and questioning] humans, before killing them, to find out where stockpiles of gold, silver and platinum are kept.” Since “Black dragons are especially fond of coins”. - apologies to the writers of Doctor Who. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/424 "2009-03-22T19:08:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Point the fifth: Not only is V operating under a non-compete clause with Tiamat at the moment, clerics of the five-headed goddess seem to be in fairly short supply in this world, and gods seem to do most of their direct work through clerics. Addendum: The gods do most of their work through their _followers_. For most gods, their most powerful followers are indeed clerics, but consider who Tiamat’s followers are. Dragons don’t need any class levels to forward the goals of their goddess. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/425 "2009-03-22T19:34:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > [QUOTE=Terrifel] > How do metallic dragons amass their hoards, anyway? By working for it or as gifts from other good-aligned peoples, mostly, although bronzes also specialise in salvaging sunken treasure and pearl diving. [/QUOTE] And probably by killing off evil dragons and taking **their** hoards. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/426 "2009-03-22T19:47:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And probably by killing off evil dragons and taking **their** hoards. I think that comes under “working for it” - see “pests, control of”. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/427 "2009-03-23T03:58:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Killing off a bunch of black dragons isn’t genocide. It’s pest control! Coincidentally, dragons have a similar saying about humans. A human killing a dragon in order to steal his treasure is good. A dragon killing a human in order to steal his treasure is evil. The two acts are different how? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/428 "2009-03-23T05:09:52Z")
Devil’s advocate: isn’t an evil dragon’s treasure, 99% of the time, gained by acts of wholescale slaughter and vicious plundering of other beings and species? Usually good/neutral? ETA: I realize that most of the time, the dragon slayers aren’t going to be returning the dragon’s loot to its original owners. But that’s often because it doesn’t have names attached (I’d expect many might return stuff that was unique enough and tied enough to a particular individual or group), and/or the owners are dead anyway. Killed by above mentioned dragon. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/429 "2009-03-23T07:03:10Z")
> [@Just\_Some\_Guy](#): > > I can pretty much guarantee that Burlew had something like this in mind for a long time, but planning plot points ahead of time and foreshadowing them does not qualify a person as the greatest writer. That’s a pretty basic skill… > > His constant raising and subverting of expectations on the other hand definitely credit him as an entertaining writer. I’m a bit dense - what’s the foreshadowing? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/430 "2009-03-23T07:21:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Coincidentally, dragons have a similar saying about humans. It helps that I play human characters, then. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > A human killing a dragon in order to steal his treasure is good. A dragon killing a human in order to steal his treasure is evil. The two acts are different how?. Humans don’t eat the dragons afterwards? And a human killing a\* Gold _Dragon to get its treasure_ would\* be evil. That’s how the alignment system works. That’s also why I mostly play Rolemaster, where the kind of moral relativism espoused in this thread is just fine. But D’nD is more clear-cut than that, when I play it. Evil creatures are evil. Black dragons are cruel, vicious monsters, they’re not “misunderstood” or “potentialy” evil. I mean, look at the double standard here - people are defending the dragon, but they’re just fine with assuming the 3 fiends _are_ up to no good. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/431 "2009-03-23T11:41:26Z")
> [@Darth\_Sensitive](#): > > I’m a bit dense - what’s the foreshadowing? First, Vaarsuvius has had a dark edge for a while. S/he suggest killing the captured Linear Guild, for example. Combine that with an obsession with power that’s measured in how many people you can kill (note how few spells V uses that are not direct damage) and you have a formula for this kind of self-destructive rampage. V’s been set up for a long time (almost right back to the beginning of the strip having a storyline) for doing something very stupid for power and then handling it like a sledgehammer. The fact that there was way too much treasure for an adolescent dragon was pointed out when V killed it. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/432 "2009-03-23T15:10:02Z")
Oh - I thought there was something specific I totally missed back with the strip 500. I’ve seen that V is on the dark edge of neutral, yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/433 "2009-03-23T16:52:12Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But D’nD is more clear-cut than that, when I play it. Evil creatures are evil. Black dragons are cruel, vicious monsters, they’re not “misunderstood” or “potentialy” evil. I don’t think anyone is disputing that. The black dragon is evil. But even in the D&D world, the fact that a being is evil doesn’t give you carte blanche to do whatever you want with it without moral consequences. I mean, Belkar is also a cruel, vicious monster, but the rest of the party still can’t skin him alive, even if they wanted to. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/434 "2009-03-23T17:07:41Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I don’t think anyone is disputing that. The black dragon is evil. But even in the D&D world, the fact that a being is evil doesn’t give you carte blanche to do whatever you want with it without moral consequences. I mean, Belkar is also a cruel, vicious monster, but the rest of the party still can’t skin him alive, even if they wanted to. This. I don’t understand how anyone can argue that what V did was anything but pure chaotic evil at its finest. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/435 "2009-03-23T17:26:04Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > This. I don’t understand how anyone can argue that what V did was anything but pure chaotic evil at its finest. I’d call it lawful evil, actually. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/436 "2009-03-23T17:44:55Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I don’t think anyone is disputing that. The black dragon is evil. But even in the D&D world, the fact that a being is evil doesn’t give you carte blanche to do whatever you want with it without moral consequences. I mean, Belkar is also a cruel, vicious monster, but the rest of the party still can’t skin him alive, even if they wanted to. What can I say - it’s different for people. And I’d peg V’s actions as CN, myself. Like I said, killing monsters is what heroes do. It doesn’t matter if it’s sitting down to a tea party at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/437 "2009-03-23T18:03:08Z")
Is the act of creating undead considered evil in the D&D world, no matter what? Or can good/neutral characters do it? ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/438 "2009-03-23T18:17:00Z")
The SRD lists _animate dead_ and _create undead_ spells with the “Evil” keyword. Using an Evil spell is one of the few things in D&D that is explicitly an evil act. Most everything else is subject to quibbling and contradiction. However I don’t recall anything that would prevent good and neutral characters from using an Evil spell, other than the murky threat of alignment change, maybe. _Familicide_ might be a spell with the “Evil” keyword… but _finger of death_, _power word kill_ and _slay living_ all lack the “Evil” keyword (but do have the “Death” keyword), and the former seems basically just an amped-up version of the latter three. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/439 "2009-03-23T19:00:42Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Humans don’t eat the dragons afterwards? They will, however, wear their skin as a coat. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/440 "2009-03-23T19:06:06Z")
Quoth **MrDibble** : > [@](#): > > Like I said, killing monsters is what heroes do. It doesn’t matter if it’s sitting down to a tea party at the time. [You sure about that?](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) > [@](#): > > That’s how the alignment system works. That’s also why I mostly play Rolemaster, where the kind of moral relativism espoused in this thread is just fine. But D’nD is more clear-cut than that, when I play it. Evil creatures are evil. Black dragons are cruel, vicious monsters, they’re not “misunderstood” or “potentialy” evil. I’ve never understood this sentiment: “When we play D&D, we all try to mindlessly slaughter everything that isn’t the same alignment as us. But I don’t like that playstyle, so I prefer other games where we don’t do that.” If you don’t like that playstyle, then why do you play D&D that way? Nothing in the D&D books says that’s how the PCs are supposed to behave, and yet everyone seems to have that impression of D&D and D&D alone among all role-playing games. Quoth **Lightray** : > [@](#): > > However I don’t recall anything that would prevent good and neutral characters from using an Evil spell, other than the murky threat of alignment change, maybe. Clerics cannot cast a spell with an alignment descriptor contrary to their own or their deity’s, but arcane casters can, with the caveat that doing so too often (and how often is “too often” is never defined) will cause an alignment change. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=23)