# Order of the Stick General Discussion Thread (Open Spoilers and Speculation) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 2, 2009, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096 "2009-02-02T07:39:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/441 "2009-03-23T19:19:23Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > However I don’t recall anything that would prevent good and neutral characters from using an Evil spell, other than the murky threat of alignment change, maybe. [Sometimes it’s worth it](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/CaptainChewbacca/Inspiration/AlignmentChange.jpg). Something someone whipped up after V evil ascension. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/442 "2009-03-23T19:57:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’ve never understood this sentiment: “When we play D&D, we all try to mindlessly slaughter everything that isn’t the same alignment as us. But I don’t like that playstyle, so I prefer other games where we don’t do that.” If you don’t like that playstyle, then why do you play D&D that way? Nothing in the D&D books says that’s how the PCs are supposed to behave, and yet everyone seems to have that impression of D&D and D&D alone among all role-playing games. The alignment system is so central to D’nD, from spells to some character classes. It’s too much work to cut all that out, rather than just play a different system where alignment isn’t built into the fabric of the setting.. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/443 "2009-03-23T20:06:50Z")
The alignment system is built into the game. Mindlessly slaughtering everything with a different alignment from you isn’t. Yes, black dragons are clearly and unambiguously evil, but that doesn’t mean that good characters are expected to indiscriminately genocide them. Why would having a system of describing various behaviors (which is fundamentally all the alignment system is) imply anything of the sort? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/444 "2009-03-23T22:00:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The alignment system is built into the game. Mindlessly slaughtering everything with a different alignment from you isn’t. Yes, black dragons are clearly and unambiguously evil, but that doesn’t mean that good characters are expected to indiscriminately genocide them. Yeah. Assuming V brought the black dragon species across the brink of extinction (which it’s my sense he did), how many other parties did he gank future kills from? It’s incalculable, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/445 "2009-03-24T03:57:50Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Yeah. Assuming V brought the black dragon species across the brink of extinction (which it’s my sense he did), how many other parties did he gank future kills from? It’s incalculable, IMHO. Hmmmm…I wonder. Did V just kill all the members of the black dragon’s (very) extended family, or did he kill the species? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/446 "2009-03-24T04:02:25Z")
I think Vaarsuvius should have remembered his own warning from [163](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0163.html). ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/447 "2009-03-24T07:15:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The alignment system is so central to D’nD, from spells to some character classes. It’s too much work to cut all that out, rather than just play a different system where alignment isn’t built into the fabric of the setting.. You’re wrong about how the alignment system works. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/448 "2009-03-24T07:20:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The alignment system is built into the game. Mindlessly slaughtering everything with a different alignment from you isn’t. I would say it was very _mindful_ slaughtering. > [@Chronos](#): > > Yes, black dragons are clearly and unambiguously evil, but that doesn’t mean that good characters are expected to indiscriminately genocide them. They should, if they can. > [@Chronos](#): > > Why would having a system of describing various behaviors (which is fundamentally all the alignment system is) imply anything of the sort? You said it yourself - “clearly and unambiguously evil”. That’s good enough for me (in the context of a RPG - the real world, of course, is not as clear-cut.) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/449 "2009-03-24T07:27:58Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > You’re wrong about how the alignment system works. That’s\* your\* opinion on how you’d like it to work. I’ve been playing D’nD for …gods, something like 25 years, now? Suffice to say, I give my experience more weight than your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/450 "2009-03-24T07:38:13Z")
[Another early dark moment](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0212.html). V’s refusal to help the helpless villagers because it wasn’t his/her job is pretty LE to my mind. That said, you all credit Burlew with a whole lot based on what’s he’s said his motivations were _after the fact_. It’s too easy to claim credit that way, and simply bringing back a character’s family (the entire black dragon story) doesn’t prove foresight, merely a healthy sense of what’s gone before. Reread those bits about the juvenile black dragon- there’s no real sense that we’re going to hear about this again. Yes, V’s been headed down a dark path for a long time, but I don’t see any proof that Burlew has this all planned down to the details. He’s got the rough outlines, sure, and I’d believe that he’s got the plot structure pretty well figured out, but I just don’t see any good evidence that he’s got the whole thing planned down to the letter like that. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/451 "2009-03-24T07:45:49Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > The dragon was criticized by many for going over the top with her planned revenge, so I suspect V will do likewise. Even if the family ends up completely safe and protected, I think the idea about the dragon’s fate will be that “death is too good for you” and V will do something utterly evil and vicious just because s/he **can** - got the magic, might as well use it, right? > [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > I’ll give you that. However, my bet is on the side that V isn’t going to even consider something to help “make nice”. V’s going to go waaaaaaaaaay deep into death-and-destruction, to a level that makes the dragon’s revenge plan look really tame, and just because the triple Evil crew handed out a bunch of new toys to play with. It’s an honor to meet you, Mr Burlew ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/452 "2009-03-24T15:54:56Z")
> [@Taber](#): > > It’s an honor to meet you, Mr Burlew Yeah, I admit it: I was barking up the wrong tree. Ah well. It’s all just speculation. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/453 "2009-03-24T16:18:26Z")
I have to wonder if [this](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0338.html) was foreshadowing. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/454 "2009-03-24T16:24:36Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > I have to wonder if [this](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0338.html) was foreshadowing. Entirely possible, but I doubt Burlew had the black dragon/soul splice stuff worked out by then. When you create characters for roleplay, the best way to make a solid, playable character is to give them a hook. It can be their reason for adventuring, some dark secret, something that the DM can take and either make a plot out of or weave into the larger story. I guarantee you when Burlew created V, he put V down as having a family whom V cares deeply about and is willing to do _anything_ to protect and provide for. Burlew probably expected early on that V’s family would be put in danger by some villain, but I doubt he knew at the time whether it would be the dragon, Xykon, Miko, or some random band of hobgoblins. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/455 "2009-03-24T17:09:18Z")
> [@Taber](#): > > It’s an honor to meet you, Mr Burlew Uh… uh… look, over there, a purple monkey! _flees_ I’m not him! I… uh… listen, just because I have an occasionally debilitating health problem that holds up my productivity, doesn’t mean… I’m not helping, am I? Well, I’m female for starters. 😃 And I’m not sure I’m quite that on target but it doesn’t stop me from arguing that at times! ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/456 "2009-03-24T17:12:44Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That’s\* your\* opinion on how you’d like it to work. I’ve been playing D’nD for …gods, something like 25 years, now? Suffice to say, I give my experience more weight than your opinion. What a coincidence! I have been playing D&D since I was 17, most of the time as a GM, which makes it an even 25 years of experience, and I find your approach to alignment (“if it is evil, kill it”) rather abhorrent and not conducive to a good gaming experience. Don’t you think that what you say is perhaps how **you** think it should work? Interpretations vary, and, honestly… In my gaming experience, a more flexible approach to alignment was way more enjoyable than going Dalek whenever you see something evil. You said before that you preferred Rolemaster because it didn’t have alignment (or so I interpreted one of your posts). So it seems to me that what you are saying is that your beef is with the alignment system **itself**. And, in any case, let us remember that we are not talking “pure” D&D: We are talking about “The Order of the Stick”, a story that, although set in an universe _based_ on D&D, is _not_ 100% D&D. For one, the “good” and “evil” beings in this story are way more complex than that simple descriptor conveys, in my opinion making it legitimate to inject at least a little bit of “real world” morality in our views of what is happening in the story. To sum up: I think that, once V disposed of the black dragon that hurt his family, V’s further actions were very morally dubious, if not outright evil – To me, they are more a mafia-style vendetta than anything else. With the added problem that V appears to be enjoying it quite a lot (or so I interpret V’s expression and body language in panels 10 and 11). Whether this is V personally enjoying it, or the three humongously evil souls doing the time-share enjoying it, I don’t know. But I see an element of enjoyment there. And that is not healthy. Dispose of an enemy if you have to. But, annihilating that enemy’s relatives to the N-th degree, relatives that you don’t even know, who have never had any beef with you until then, and _enjoying_ it? That is bad. And that is my opinion. JoseB ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/457 "2009-03-24T17:25:05Z")
> [@](#): > > That said, you all credit Burlew with a whole lot based on what’s he’s said his motivations were after the fact. It’s too easy to claim credit that way, and simply bringing back a character’s family (the entire black dragon story) doesn’t prove foresight, merely a healthy sense of what’s gone before. Reread those bits about the juvenile black dragon- there’s no real sense that we’re going to hear about this again. Yes, V’s been headed down a dark path for a long time, but I don’t see any proof that Burlew has this all planned down to the details. He’s got the rough outlines, sure, and I’d believe that he’s got the plot structure pretty well figured out, but I just don’t see any good evidence that he’s got the whole thing planned down to the letter like that. The details of the storyline seems to fit together too well to just be made up as it goes along. I think Burlew’s telling the truth when he says he pre-plans a lot of what’s going to happen well in advance. If anything, the alternative would be much more difficult. If Burlew isn’t planning his story out in advance and planting elements he’s planning on using later, then he’s pulling together random elements from his already written story and making them fit into the ongoing storyline. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/458 "2009-03-24T17:34:16Z")
> [@JoseB](#): > > What a coincidence! I have been playing D&D since I was 17, most of the time as a GM, which makes it an even 25 years of experience, and I find your approach to alignment (“if it is evil, kill it”) rather abhorrent and not conducive to a good gaming experience. > > Don’t you think that what you say is perhaps how **you** think it should work? Interpretations vary, and, honestly… In my gaming experience, a more flexible approach to alignment was way more enjoyable than going Dalek whenever you see something evil. > > You said before that you preferred Rolemaster because it didn’t have alignment (or so I interpreted one of your posts). So it seems to me that what you are saying is that your beef is with the alignment system **itself**. > > And, in any case, let us remember that we are not talking “pure” D&D: We are talking about “The Order of the Stick”, a story that, although set in an universe _based_ on D&D, is _not_ 100% D&D. For one, the “good” and “evil” beings in this story are way more complex than that simple descriptor conveys, in my opinion making it legitimate to inject at least a little bit of “real world” morality in our views of what is happening in the story. > > To sum up: I think that, once V disposed of the black dragon that hurt his family, V’s further actions were very morally dubious, if not outright evil – To me, they are more a mafia-style vendetta than anything else. > > With the added problem that V appears to be enjoying it quite a lot (or so I interpret V’s expression and body language in panels 10 and 11). Whether this is V personally enjoying it, or the three humongously evil souls doing the time-share enjoying it, I don’t know. But I see an element of enjoyment there. And that is not healthy. Dispose of an enemy if you have to. But, annihilating that enemy’s relatives to the N-th degree, relatives that you don’t even know, who have never had any beef with you until then, and _enjoying_ it? That is bad. > > And that is my opinion. > > JoseB While you may have some fine points, I’d still rather spend an evening drinking beer, eating nachos, and playing **MrDibble** ’s version of D&D. Can I please keep the navel-gazing philosophy out of my gaming time? Can I kill an orc and get some friggin’ XP already without getting all weepy and moon-eyed about its family life? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/459 "2009-03-24T17:56:15Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > While you may have some fine points, I’d still rather spend an evening drinking beer, eating nachos, and playing **MrDibble** ’s version of D&D. Can I please keep the navel-gazing philosophy out of my gaming time? Can I kill an orc and get some friggin’ XP already without getting all weepy and moon-eyed about its family life? Thanks. But of course! As I said in my post, I was talking about _ **my** _ gaming experience and that of most of the people I have tended to play with. Your gaming experience is different? Good for you! Some people enjoy “Hack & Slash”. Others don’t. And some people will like both “Hack & Slash” and “navel-gazing” at different times. And I have the feeling that all of them are right, because, after all… We game to have fun. And we may find our “fun” in different ways. I may have sounded too maximalist when I said that **MrDibble** ’s approach felt “abhorrent” to me. I should have understood that many people like it. However, there are many people who don’t like it and that doesn’t make them wrong, either. But we are not here to talk about gaming styles. We are here to talk about OotS 🙂 And my point about OotS, as mentioned in my previous post, stands: OotS is _ **not** _ a pure D&D story (although it takes place in an universe _ **based** _ on it), its characters are more complex than a simple “good” and “evil” moniker might imply, and there is some justification to inject a little bit of “real world” morality into our interpretations of what we see happening in the story. (And Vaarsuvius is really screwing things up! So there 😛 ) JoseB ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/460 "2009-03-24T18:46:29Z")
Fair enough. Pardon my grumping. I’m irritable today for some reason. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=24)