# Order of the Stick General Discussion Thread (Open Spoilers and Speculation) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 2, 2009, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096 "2009-02-02T07:39:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/461 "2009-03-24T19:20:32Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > While you may have some fine points, I’d still rather spend an evening drinking beer, eating nachos, and playing **MrDibble** ’s version of D&D. Can I please keep the navel-gazing philosophy out of my gaming time? Can I kill an orc and get some friggin’ XP already without getting all weepy and moon-eyed about its family life? Thanks. The point is that a good DM will give the party of Lawful or Good characters a compelling reason to kill the orcs, such as “…after years of keeping to themselves, the orcs are sacking a nearby village.” Whatever. It’s not hard to find something to truly give a LG character license to kill that goes a bit further into rationality than “they’ve evil therefore they deserve to die” which is just really stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/462 "2009-03-24T19:25:37Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > The point is that a good DM will give the party of Lawful or Good characters a compelling reason to kill the orcs, such as “…after years of keeping to themselves, the orcs are sacking a nearby village.” Whatever. It’s not hard to find something to truly give a LG character license to kill that goes a bit further into rationality than “they’ve evil therefore they deserve to die” which is just really stupid. Dude. We’re past it. I understand. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/463 "2009-03-24T19:55:50Z")
Again, I have no problem with people who just like to play a hack-and-slash campaign, where paladins don’t fall for smiting everything that pings their evil-dar, and where you kill the orcs just because they’re orcs. What I have a problem with is people who _complain_ about that being a feature of D&D, when they’re the ones who chose to make it that way to begin with. If you don’t want to play a game with a senseless alignment system, then don’t make the alignment system senseless. ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/464 "2009-03-24T20:22:06Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Fair enough. Pardon my grumping. I’m irritable today for some reason. Eh, no problemo 🙂 Happens to the best of us! Some day we’ll play together, and I’ll let you annihilate as many orcs as you want 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/465 "2009-03-24T22:39:22Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If you don’t want to play a game with a senseless alignment system, then don’t make the alignment system senseless. Hear, hear. ---
**Author:** ![CrystalWolf111](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47c2d/32.png) [@CrystalWolf111](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrystalWolf111)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/466 "2009-03-24T22:46:44Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I disagree. While it certainly wasn 't Good, it was Neutral rather than Evil. Turnabout is fair play. Arguably, V is being merciful: the dragon was going to Soul Bind V’s children; V isn’t going that far. Yet. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/467 "2009-03-25T10:21:04Z")
> [@JoseB](#): > > What a coincidence! I have been playing D&D since I was 17, most of the time as a GM, which makes it an even 25 years of experience, and I find your approach to alignment (“if it is evil, kill it”) rather abhorrent and not conducive to a good gaming experience. Like I said, I can appreciate both kinds of gaming - I just don’t choose the (IMO) flawed D’nD system for the nuanced kind. > [@JoseB](#): > > Don’t you think that what you say is perhaps how **you** think it should work? But of course - I was merely countering those absolutists who said that’s _definitely_ not how the system works. > [@JoseB](#): > > You said before that you preferred Rolemaster because it didn’t have alignment (or so I interpreted one of your posts). So it seems to me that what you are saying is that your beef is with the alignment system **itself**. Yes, I thought I made that clear. > [@JoseB](#): > > And, in any case, let us remember that we are not talking “pure” D&D: We are talking about “The Order of the Stick”, a story that, although set in an universe _based_ on D&D, is _not_ 100% D&D. For one, the “good” and “evil” beings in this story are way more complex than that simple descriptor conveys, in my opinion making it legitimate to inject at least a little bit of “real world” morality in our views of what is happening in the story. Fair enough. I still think man-eating monsters are a clear case, morally, though. I notice no-one’s addressed my point about making similar assumptions about the fiends. > [@JoseB](#): > > To sum up: I think that, once V disposed of the black dragon that hurt his family, V’s further actions were very morally dubious, if not outright evil – To me, they are more a mafia-style vendetta than anything else.. Morally dubious - I agree completely. However, V is Neutral - morally dubious for him is not the same as for a Good character. I can certainly see the case for expedience over forethought, there. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/468 "2009-03-26T22:55:56Z")
[Hmmm…](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html) ---
**Author:** ![Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d9b06d/32.png) [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichini_Sanshigo)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/469 "2009-03-27T00:02:52Z")
New update, forum down. I’m trying to figure out what the fiend’s friend’s jersey says. Looks like, “Duke” and “Ancovia”? And yeah, I kinda figured the 3 souls were mostly there to provide power and knowledge, but couldn’t actually alter V’s actions. If they could, I don’t think they’d waste time trying to be subtle - they’d just take over. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/470 "2009-03-27T00:08:14Z")
Nice twist. But I don’t get the punchline. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/471 "2009-03-27T00:12:09Z")
I’m a huge nerd who hates sports but even I recognized the college mascots and know that there’s a big college basketball tournament going on right now. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/472 "2009-03-27T00:12:30Z")
March Madness, baby. Duke and Arizona. The fiend is flashing on his college days and following college basketball. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/473 "2009-03-27T00:14:28Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Nice twist. But I don’t get the punchline. I think it’s a March Madness punchline. Duke Blue Devils and Arizona State Sun Devils. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/474 "2009-03-27T01:05:29Z")
I think that also tells us which one is Lee. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/475 "2009-03-27T01:07:17Z")
I realize it’s V saying it, but the way he says ‘every creature in your family’ really makes me think there are unexpected deaths that will come to light. They didn’t show his family yet, so I’m really hoping it isn’t his kids. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/476 "2009-03-27T01:17:57Z")
The alignment non-effect thing is pretty expected, considering what V already did to Kubota and why. Power drunkenness and an excuse to cut loose are pretty powerful things. ETA: But considering both this and the previously mentioned Kubota incident, does that mean that V was a flavor of evil to begin with? Or not necessarily? After all, the exhaustion when (s)he Disintegrated Kubota probably had a similar “reduce inhibition” effect as this. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/477 "2009-03-27T01:23:45Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > ETA: But considering both this and the previously mentioned Kubota incident, does that mean that V was a flavor of evil to begin with? Or not necessarily? After all, the exhaustion when (s)he Disintegrated Kubota probably had a similar “reduce inhibition” effect as this. Detect Evil didn’t pick Vaarsuvius up before. Given that V tends to swing back and forth between all the alignment poles I always took him/her to be True Neutral. Besides, the “goes both ways” joke works even better with an ambiguous gender. 🙂 (Obviously that alignment no longer holds. V’s taken the big step.) ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/478 "2009-03-27T01:29:03Z")
Although Burlew could’ve been conveniently ignoring alignements to make a good joke, it seems that V was once some variant of [good](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html). Since [unholy blight](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/unholyblight.htm) only sickens Good creatures. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/479 "2009-03-27T01:37:27Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Although Burlew could’ve been conveniently ignoring alignements to make a good joke, it seems that V was once some variant of [good](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html). Since [unholy blight](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/unholyblight.htm) only sickens Good creatures. An excellent point, though that was in the period when the strip was just D&D gags and before he worked out that he wanted to tell a plot. I blame Cerebus for that. 😉 Anyhow, I’m going to argue that anything before around strip 60 to be only loosely in continuity with the storyline. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/480 "2009-03-27T02:09:17Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Although Burlew could’ve been conveniently ignoring alignements to make a good joke, it seems that V was once some variant of [good](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html). Since [unholy blight](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/unholyblight.htm) only sickens Good creatures. I dunno, Durkon is the only one who looks sickened, and your cite says that Unholy Blight does half damage to neutral creatures. That could still be enough to temporarily incapacitate V. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=25)