# Order of the Stick General Discussion Thread (Open Spoilers and Speculation) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 2, 2009, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096 "2009-02-02T07:39:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/621 "2009-04-19T19:55:03Z")
> [@Zetetic](#): > > Could Vaarsuvius, in his new heightened-power state, kill the demons he has made a bargain with? Possibly, but s/he’d have to find them first, and that assumes that they can’t just take that power back as soon as they find out what s/he’s up to. > [@](#): > > If killing them isn’t possible what about banishing/exorcising them, or something along those lines? Anything that would remove them from being in a position to call in the debt when the soul-splice ends. No, they’re already back on the Lower Planes, in the place s/he’d be banishing them _to_. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/622 "2009-04-19T20:06:35Z")
With his raw power? Mebbe. But they’re the types spells can just bounce off of, too. Now, he’s got a high enough caster level to burn through that… probably… but I’d really want a whole party. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/623 "2009-04-19T20:15:12Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I’m thinking there’s some hot, rogue-on-bard action tonight, baby. > > That and I’m wondering whether V’s spliced friends will encourage him not to bring Roy back since Roy can report on them. Nah, Roy bought their lie. Aaah, Bluff skill, is there anything you can’t make happen ? > [@](#): > > Could Vaarsuvius, in his new heightened-power state, kill the demons he has made a bargain with? > > If he is not powerful enough to do so alone, is there some combination of factors (the whole Order assisting him / going on a quest for a fabled powerful artifact / something else) that would enable him to kill them? > > If killing them isn’t possible what about banishing/exorcising them, or something along those lines? Anything that would remove them from being in a position to call in the debt when the soul-splice ends. He probably could at that, but it wouldn’t matter. Nothing really dies in the multiverse. Killing a demon, or devil, or daemon just sends its soul back for reincarnation in whatever plane it came from. Banishment does the same, only without the physical pain before that :p. They need some time to regain their powers and body, but unless you seal them or something, they always come back. I do wonder what happens if you kill a planar entity in its home plane though. As for the specifics of the soul splice, and what would happen if V died without anyone to collect, well, it’s something Rich made up from scratch, there’s nothing like that in the official D&D rules. So, just like Xykon’s Cloister spell, the specifics are a mystery. Or to be more precise, the specifics are 100% plot-dependant 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/624 "2009-04-19T22:07:42Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Nah, Roy bought their lie. Aaah, Bluff skill, is there anything you can’t make happen ?😉 Roy really should take a few ranks in sense motive one of these days. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/625 "2009-04-19T22:32:14Z")
I’m not entirely sure he bought it. Roy is surprisingly intelligent. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/626 "2009-04-20T00:27:21Z")
I thought resurrected beings didn’t remember their time in the afterlife. Or is my imagination acting up again? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/627 "2009-04-20T00:33:49Z")
In D&D, you can attempt to kill absolutely anything, even the gods. But we don’t know how powerful the fiends are, and a good guess would be “extremely”. They also surely thought through all the ramifications of their deal, and they’re definitely not stupid, so I think it’s safe to say that they’re either sufficiently powerful that even a triple-spliced mortal spellcaster can’t faze them, or that they built in some sort of precaution into the splices to make it impossible to use their power against them. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/628 "2009-04-20T00:41:02Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > In D&D, you can attempt to kill absolutely anything, even the gods. But we don’t know how powerful the fiends are, and a good guess would be “extremely”. They also surely thought through all the ramifications of their deal, and they’re definitely not stupid, so I think it’s safe to say that they’re either sufficiently powerful that even a triple-spliced mortal spellcaster can’t faze them, or that they built in some sort of precaution into the splices to make it impossible to use their power against them. I thought 3E eliminated the god killing by anything other than plot effects. So no more teleporting to Valhalla, beating up Thor, and taking his hammer. Or saying “Hastur Hastur Hastur” and fighting the ---
**Author:** ![3trew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/13edae/32.png) [@3trew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3trew)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/629 "2009-04-20T01:52:39Z")
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**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/630 "2009-04-20T02:13:29Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > In D&D, you can attempt to kill absolutely anything, even the gods. But we don’t know how powerful the fiends are, and a good guess would be “extremely”. They also surely thought through all the ramifications of their deal, and they’re definitely not stupid, so I think it’s safe to say that they’re either sufficiently powerful that even a triple-spliced mortal spellcaster can’t faze them, or that they built in some sort of precaution into the splices to make it impossible to use their power against them. Nah, think of it this way, either way, they win. Fiends don’t die too well, and even if they do they still can be resurrected by various means (though I think it’s a little more complex for non-mortal races). If V tried to back out of the deal by killing them, well, that’s yet another alignment shift towards evil (to clarify, while weaseling out of a contract may make one chaotic, doing it by killing your debtors will probably make you evil nine times out of ten). > [@](#): > > ``` > I thought resurrected beings didn't remember their time in the afterlife. Or is my imagination acting up again? > > ``` I’m not aware of anything like that. On another note, what level is Durkon? I’d assume not high enough to cast 9th level spells considering they could have just used True Resurrection and saved themselves some trouble with lugging around a body (they can foot that bill, they had more than enough gold with them), but I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/631 "2009-04-20T02:41:41Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > On another note, what level is Durkon? I’d assume not high enough to cast 9th level spells considering they could have just used True Resurrection and saved themselves some trouble with lugging around a body (they can foot that bill, they had more than enough gold with them), but I’m not sure. V can cast 7th level spells, which would make him at least 13th level, I think. So Durkon is probably at a similar level. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/632 "2009-04-20T02:42:07Z")
The best estimate is that Roy is level 13 going on 12, and that everyone else in the party is 14. Everyone was known to have been level 13 as of the start of the Battle of Azure City, and Vaarsuvius (without the splices) is known to now be exactly 14. So Durkon has 7th level spells like Resurrection, but not any 8th or higher. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/633 "2009-04-20T03:11:03Z")
> [@Just\_Some\_Guy](#): > > I thought 3E eliminated the god killing by anything other than plot effects. So no more teleporting to Valhalla, beating up Thor, and taking his hammer. Or saying “Hastur Hastur Hastur” and fighting the Nope. _Deities & Demigods_ had a 3e version, which details how to stat up gods, with an eye to them being Epic Level antagonists. Although the Lovecraftian Mythos was not added back in, so they didn’t intend you to be teleporting to Carcosa and beating up _him_. … of course, looks like that bit of news may be too late for you. Who knew it would work _typing_ it three times? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/634 "2009-04-20T06:12:06Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > He probably could at that, but it wouldn’t matter. Nothing really dies in the multiverse. Killing a demon, or devil, or daemon just sends its soul back for reincarnation in whatever plane it came from. Banishment does the same, only without the physical pain before that :p. They need some time to regain their powers and body, but unless you seal them or something, they always come back. I do wonder what happens if you kill a planar entity in its home plane though. You can. Killing a creature that is on the material plane via summoning magic or an Astral Projection spell just sends it back home, but under any other circumstances killing a fiend is just as lethal as killing anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/635 "2009-04-20T15:23:14Z")
Well, time for some speculation. So. There’s a soul floating around, the unbound soul of an extremely powerful necromancer (Haera). I’m guessing she’s looking for another caster to hook up with. Let’s see, might she decide to settle down with [a certain evil theurge we’ve met before](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html)? If so, it’ll be a damn sight harder for V to just waltz over and defeat Xykon once and for all… anyway, I’m just guessing here, but it seems like a good possibility to me. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/636 "2009-04-20T16:34:18Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > Well, time for some speculation. > > So. There’s a soul floating around, the unbound soul of an extremely powerful necromancer (Haera). I’m guessing she’s looking for another caster to hook up with. Let’s see, might she decide to settle down with [a certain evil theurge we’ve met before](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html)? If so, it’ll be a damn sight harder for V to just waltz over and defeat Xykon once and for all… anyway, I’m just guessing here, but it seems like a good possibility to me. I am reasonably sure that said theurge hooking up with Haera would involve her promoting herself from minion to Necrotic Empress With Sexy Bony Consort, and enforce her consort’s good behavior with Heightened Command Undead. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/637 "2009-04-20T16:46:15Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > You can. Killing a creature that is on the material plane via summoning magic or an Astral Projection spell just sends it back home, but under any other circumstances killing a fiend is just as lethal as killing anyone else. Which is to say : not lethal at all. Roy died and just went on to the Lawful Good plane - but he’s still _there_, he just moved on to another state of being. And he can be resurrected, wished back, whatev. I assume the same is true of planars, although the actual mechanics are a lot more vague AFAIK. The dead-on-own-plane planars might end up in Sigil, or on a lower strata of the same plane, or in the countless pocket planes, half-planes, side-planes… I have no idea, and it’s not detailed in any of the (admittedly few) D&D and Planescape sourcebooks I’ve read. ETA : [QUOTE=Alessan] I’m not entirely sure he bought it. Roy is surprisingly intelligent. [/QUOTE] Yes he is… for a _Fighter_. Who doesn’t have Sense Motive as a class skill ;). And IIRC, SM is based off Wisdom anyway, not Intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/638 "2009-04-20T16:56:44Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Which is to say : not lethal at all. Roy died and just went on to the Lawful Good plane - but he’s still _there_, he just moved on to another state of being. And he can be resurrected, wished back, whatev. I assume the same is true of planars, although the actual mechanics are a lot more vague AFAIK. Afraid not. An Outsider who gets killed, anywhere, is dead without some extremely powerful magic; Wish or True Resurrection, basically. (There are also a few spells in the Spell Compendium that will do it.) Back in pre - 3E days, a fiend could only be permanently killed on its home plane; that is no longer true. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/639 "2009-04-20T18:18:02Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Yes he is… for a _Fighter_. Who doesn’t have Sense Motive as a class skill ;). And IIRC, SM is based off Wisdom anyway, not Intelligence. Actually, he’s apprently even smarter in raw intelligence than Varsuuvius. Anyway, brining the subject back I was curious if Miko wil ever show up again. SHe was originally intended to be a recurring antagonist, not exactly good or evil, who would (meaning the very best in her obsessive/psychotic Paladiny way) hound the OotS again and again. However, people were so upset and went so wild over her appearance that Berlew may have killed her off permanently. I find that a shame, because even if you don’t like her, she’s an interesting character. I certainly hope she shows up again. I’d rather like to see how she’d play off having to work alongside Belkar and currently-wicked-Varsuuvius. That’s be hilarious. (Can I be sympathetic to her and also want to see her forehead veins pop like fireworks? :D) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/640 "2009-04-20T18:52:56Z")
> [@MHaye](#): > > Afraid not. > > An Outsider who gets killed, anywhere, is dead without some extremely powerful magic; Wish or True Resurrection, basically. (There are also a few spells in the Spell Compendium that will do it). Yes, but consider the implications : I’ll grant you that a Wish can do anything anyhow, but a Resurrected outsider’s soul has to be brought back from _somewhere_, doesn’t it ? [QUOTE=smiling bandit] I certainly hope she shows up again. I’d rather like to see how she’d play off having to work alongside Belkar and currently-wicked-Varsuuvius. That’s be hilarious. (Can I be sympathetic to her and also want to see her forehead veins pop like fireworks? ) [/QUOTE] Miko’s not coming back, ever. Her [post](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html) [bisectomy](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0465.html) strips made it pretty clear, as they harped on every one of the hundred of Miko threads cluttering the forum at the time, and crashed them in flames. “She’s gonna be resurrected by the 12 gods after a last minute redemption”, “she’s gonna become a blackguard and ally with the Linear Guild”, “She’s going to be raised as a powerful undead by Xykon”, ad nauseam. While those threads were somewhat annoying, I do think that for some reason Rich very much dislikes \*all \*the fanwank and speculation going on in his own forum - to me those 2 strips in particular were kind of spiteful. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=33)