# Order of the Stick General Discussion Thread (Open Spoilers and Speculation) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 2, 2009, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096 "2009-02-02T07:39:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/741 "2009-04-27T19:53:18Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > 1. Because Haley agreed to a truce. In D&D terms, it means that her killing is not justified by a hostile encounter. > > 2. Because she waited until her victim was in the shower where she could be sure of success and time to gloat. > > It was an evil act. A good character might be justified in provoking the encounter (outside of hostile action) with her rival if her rival were armed and had a chance to reasonably defend herself. Haley’s murder was cheap (in that her victim was essentially helpless), it was a betrayal of an agreement, and it was premeditated. That just makes it chaotic, not evil. All a chaotic good person cares about is whether a person deserves to die. Killing an innocent = murder. Killing an evil person = justified killing. The actual details of the killing are irrelevant. Point by point: 1 - By your logic, good characters cannot initiate hostile encounters. They cannot, for instance, invade dungeons, lay ambushes or assassinate tyrants. This is obviously untrue. And in addition, to a chaotic character, a truce isn’t worth more than the paper it’s written on. 2 - You expect her to abide by Queensbury rules? If she decides to kill someone, giving her a fair fight doesn’t make it more or less moral. Why should she give her enemy a fighting chance? A chaotic person fights to win, or doesn’t fight at all. Again, you seem to be confusing lawful with good; you also seem to be confusing good with stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/742 "2009-04-27T19:53:36Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > What utter crap. Any DM worth anything would absolutely call a pre-meditated murder evil, as well as slaughtering a sleeping village. Always evil? Really? Because I’ve done lots of adventures where we had to plan out, in fairly meticulous detail, precisely how we intended to break and enter into someone’s home, track down the owner, and kill them. Since the “home” in question was a temple to some dark god or another, and the “owner” was the high priest of said temple, this has never been considered an alignment violation by any GM I’ve played with. Now, I agree that Haley’s actions here aren’t nearly as clear cut, because she killed Crystal essentially without provocation - she had worked out a truce with the thieves guild, so they were no longer an active threat to her, so long as she continued to pay them. It’s not unjustifiable, though - the guild has shown they can’t be trusted to keep their agreements themselves (Bozzak originally agreed to let Haley leave the guild, then sent Crystal after her to kill her) and they’re further responsible for the trouble that Haley’s dad is currently in, and Haley’s efforts to save him would be hampered by having to pay a portion of all the money she finds back to the guild. So breaking the truce under those circumstances fits within the chaotic good alignment. Pre-emptively killing Crystal stretches it a bit, but it is a certainty that Crystal would come looking for her, and a virtual certainty that Bozzak will raise her from the dead anyway, I don’t think it rises to the level of an evil act. More chaotic neutral than chaotic good, but Haley’s done enough heroic stuff up to this point that she can stand a karmic ding towards CN without actually shifting her alignment. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/743 "2009-04-27T19:55:32Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > 1. Because Haley agreed to a truce. In D&D terms, it means that her killing is not justified by a hostile encounter. Chaotic ethics covers this. Not breaking a truce is a Lawful thing to do. Besides, what truce are we talking about? The only reason Crystal wasn’t jumping for Haley’s throat is because Haley was brought back into the Thieves’ Guild. She was brought back in on the condition that she retroactively pay 50% of her gold earned since originally leaving the Guild. But she never agreed to that. _Celia_ did, and Haley was pissed off. She really has no reason to honor the truce, especially when she can gain more by breaking it, which is the Chaotic way. > [@](#): > > 1. Because she waited until her victim was in the shower where she could be sure of success and time to gloat. Why not? The Order is making ready to leave. This is her last shot at getting Crystal back. And why on earth would she willingly begin a fight when she might not be able to get past Crystal’s defenses? Waiting for a weakness isn’t necessarily evil. Opportunistic, something a Paladin would frown on, but not necessarily evil. And even then, let’s say it is an evil act, period, no wishy-washyness allowed. Haley has done vastly more good in her time with the Order than she’s done evil. At worst she’s merely neutral. Besides, she has a very _good_ reason for telling the Guild to pound sand, but as that’s in the Origin of PCs book, I’ll probably do better to leave it out here. ---
**Author:** ![crazyjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@crazyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazyjoe)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/744 "2009-04-27T19:56:49Z")
Well, in general terms here in the “real” world we consider things like assassination of evil leaders to be evil, but no such equivalence exists in the D&D universe unless the DM makes those rules when setting up the playing rules for the adventure setting. It’s common to plot against chromatic dragons and goblins, etc, who are pretty much evil by design. It’s not uncommon to simply kill evil beings outright, and Haley has definitely reduced the influence of evil in the world by killing Crystal. One could argue that she agreed to the truce under duress (“uh, sign the truce or we tear your friends limb from limb” pretty much being the definition of “duress”). Chaotic good characters are less concerned with a fair fight than they are with winning. Also, don’t think for a minute that Crystal was held back by anything other than Bozzak’s ire from killing Haley, truce or no truce. She certainly would have done the same thing if given the chance. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/745 "2009-04-27T20:07:50Z")
> [@crazyjoe](#): > > Well, in general terms here in the “real” world we consider things like assassination of evil leaders to be evil, but no such equivalence exists in the D&D universe unless the DM makes those rules when setting up the playing rules for the adventure setting. I think the “real” world, unlike the D&D universe, has trouble differentiating good from law. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/746 "2009-04-27T20:10:39Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think the “real” world, unlike the D&D universe, has trouble differentiating good from law. Quite. It’s very much ingrained in first-world society that following the rules = being a good person. It still takes me some effort to work past that myself, which is why I generally prefer to play Paladins. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/747 "2009-04-27T20:38:42Z")
Folks, again, y’all seem to be glossing over the fact that _Crystal is probably going to get rezzed_. This isn’t a permament murder; it’s more of a mandatory time-out for Crystal. You can’t fairly evaluate Haley’s actions while ignoring that both Haley and Crystal expect that Bozzok will rez Crystal. The victim herself even made that point! Crystal was threatening Haley for _when_ Bozzok raised her. If the would-be murder victim is making plans for what she’ll be doing after the murder… not so much to get worked up about, is there? This is D&D, and the afterlife has that revolving door we saw. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/748 "2009-04-27T21:00:46Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Folks, again, y’all seem to be glossing over the fact that _Crystal is probably going to get rezzed_. This isn’t a permament murder; it’s more of a mandatory time-out for Crystal. > > You can’t fairly evaluate Haley’s actions while ignoring that both Haley and Crystal expect that Bozzok will rez Crystal. The victim herself even made that point! Crystal was threatening Haley for _when_ Bozzok raised her. Haley was actually skeptical that Bozzok would bother (“IF Bozzok raises you…” – emphasis in original). Bozzok will probably decide based on costs and benefits (the catch is that “letting somebody get away with messing with you” versus “sending a message and warning to others” weighs heavily in that sort of person’s calculations). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/749 "2009-04-27T21:05:35Z")
> [@](#): > > That just makes it chaotic, not evil. All a chaotic good person cares about is whether a person deserves to die. Killing an innocent = murder. Killing an evil person = justified killing. The actual details of the killing are irrelevant. It’s not even chaotic. Engaging your opponent when you have the advantage, rather than your opponent, isn’t wrong, or dishonorable, it’s just _smart_. Even Ms. Stick-up-her-ass Miyazaki saw nothing wrong in using a pre-combat truce to get her enemies and allies into positions favorable to her side. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/750 "2009-04-27T21:21:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Folks, again, y’all seem to be glossing over the fact that Crystal is probably going to get rezzed. This isn’t a permament murder; it’s more of a mandatory time-out for Crystal. So? Roy is probably going to be rezzed, and it looks like within the next few strips. Being killed wasn’t a permanent murder, more of a mandatory time out for him. does that mean that Xykon killing him wasn’t an evil act? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/751 "2009-04-27T21:31:47Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > So? Roy is probably going to be rezzed, and it looks like within the next few strips. Being killed wasn’t a permanent murder, more of a mandatory time out for him. does that mean that Xykon killing him wasn’t an evil act? Attacking Azure City was an evil act. Killing Roy, in and of itself, was pretty much self defense. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/752 "2009-04-27T22:05:55Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Haley was actually skeptical that Bozzok would bother (“IF Bozzok raises you…” – emphasis in original). Bozzok will probably decide based on costs and benefits (the catch is that “letting somebody get away with messing with you” versus “sending a message and warning to others” weighs heavily in that sort of person’s calculations). You could probably make a decent argument that, if Bozzak doesn’t rez Crystal, he bears moral responsibility for her being dead. It’s not like bringing her back would be particularly difficult for him. Raise Dead isn’t that high level a spell, and Bozzak is rich enough that the cost of it would barely register. I know someone’s going to say, “But Haley’s the one who killed her!” but that just illustrates how wierd morality gets when death is a temporary inconvenience. If Haley had locked Crystal in a room, and Bozzak decided to let her starve instead of open the door, no one would place the blame for her death on Haley. Effectively, by killing her, Haley just locked her in a room with a more expensive lock. If Crystal worked with anyone who was even slightly decent, her ressurection would be guaranteed. The only reason there’s the slightest chance she won’t be back is because she hangs out with evil, greedy bastards who value a few thousand gold pieces above the life of a close associate. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/753 "2009-04-27T22:15:39Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Just because _your_ idea of D&D morality is warped doesn’t mean that is how the rules work (it isn’t), and more importantly is not how everyone plays those rules in the first place. Nope. It’s shaped by rules that say something in one place and contradict themselves in behavior elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/754 "2009-04-27T22:24:11Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Attacking Azure City was an evil act. Killing Roy, in and of itself, was pretty much self defense. Not at all. As Xykon noted, he’s at least eight levels higher than Roy, and capable of just flying away. His killing Roy was essentially a big middle finger. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/755 "2009-04-27T22:40:13Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > Not at all. As Xykon noted, he’s at least eight levels higher than Roy, and capable of just flying away. His killing Roy was essentially a big middle finger. I disagree. If a high level PC mage, lawful good in alignment, is attacked by an orc, he’s entirely within his alignment description to blast the orc into little chunks, even though as a high level mage, he has plenty of non-lethal alternatives at his disposal to end the encounter. Xykon being attacked by Roy (removed from the context of Xykon attacking a city to gain access to incredible power for unspeakable reasons) is no different. Someone assaulted him, he blasted him with meteors. An utterly acceptable response, no matter what your alignment is. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/756 "2009-04-27T22:41:46Z")
I don’t believe I said that his response was unacceptable, only that it wasn’t an act of self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/757 "2009-04-27T22:55:10Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > So? Roy is probably going to be rezzed, and it looks like within the next few strips. Being killed wasn’t a permanent murder, more of a mandatory time out for him. does that mean that Xykon killing him wasn’t an evil act? Roy was actively trying to kill Xykon, and had a history of doing so. So, not evil. We’ll note in passing that Xykon – barely able to recall who Roy was, after all – probably had no idea that Roy would be rezzed (_probably_. he knew Roy was a PC, after all). And certainly didn’t care. No comparison to Haley’s act, though. Haley’s _victim_ told Haley that she’d get rezzed. Haley knew so before x-ing Crystal’s eyes. As I said, knowing that your victim is planning for what she’ll be doing after you murder her _while you are murdering her_ shifts the consideration of what, exactly, you are doing by that murder. And, since this is OotS, essentially what Haley has just done to Crystal is to mug her for some xp and gp. Because the only _rules_ effects happening here are someone being out the gp for the raise dead spell, and Crystal being out some xp while Haley gains some. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/758 "2009-04-27T23:05:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It’s not even chaotic. Engaging your opponent when you have the advantage, rather than your opponent, isn’t wrong, or dishonorable, it’s just _smart_. It is dishonorable - she’s not just engaging Crystal when she has the advantage over her : she attacked when Crystal didn’t have a single chance to fight back. She might as well have slit her throat in her sleep. So yeah, it is dishonorable. And smart. Honor is very much about doing things that go against one’s best interest. You know, things like letting your opponent stand back up rather than kicking him when he’s down. > [@](#): > > Even Ms. Stick-up-her-ass Miyazaki saw nothing wrong in using a pre-combat truce to get her enemies and allies into positions favorable to her side. You do realize you’re basing your argument on Miko The-Rules-Don’t-Apply-To-Me-Cuz-I’m-Special Miyazaki’s ethics, right ? :). ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/759 "2009-04-28T03:06:27Z")
isn’t Haley supposed to be a Rogue? to ambush your enemy is a norm right? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/760 "2009-04-28T03:17:11Z")
“Honor” is for the lawful. “Opportunity” is for the chaotic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=39)