# Order of the Stick General Discussion Thread (Open Spoilers and Speculation) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 2, 2009, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096 "2009-02-02T07:39:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/781 "2009-04-28T16:26:45Z")
Woohoo! My copies of _On The Origin Of PCs_ and _Start Of Darkness_ just showed up in the mail. Consider my work calendar for the day cleared. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/782 "2009-04-28T16:35:16Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > I’m very, _very_ glad I never played D&D and never will play D&D with some of you people. Yeah, doubt I’d ever want to ask you to. My gaming group can distinguish between an online comic poking fun at how D&D can be played, and how we _actually_ play D&D… _and_ the difference between _those_ and real world ethics/morality. It’d be like having the guy back who was arguing that _my paladin_ would’ve lost his class benefits because _I_ was a registered Republican. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/783 "2009-04-28T16:43:26Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > It’d be like having the guy back who was arguing that _my paladin_ would’ve lost his class benefits because _I_ was a registered Republican. Bwuh?! ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/784 "2009-04-28T16:49:35Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Bwuh?! Because I’d committed an Evil Act, you see. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/785 "2009-04-28T16:51:49Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Because I’d committed an Evil Act, you see. Even me, the dirty freaking gay liberal, wouldn’t take it that far. Did this guy blow up Republican Party local headquarters in his spare time? Edited to add: That’s totally beside the whole game vs. real life thing, of course… ---
**Author:** ![Wargamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Wargamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wargamer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/786 "2009-04-28T16:52:24Z")
Wouldn’t a paladin lose his powers by having a Chaotic Democrat as his player? 😉 I kid, I kid… ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/787 "2009-04-28T17:00:23Z")
> [@Hal\_Briston](#): > > Woohoo! My copies of _On The Origin Of PCs_ and _Start Of Darkness_ just showed up in the mail. Consider my work calendar for the day cleared. Oh, I envy you the next hours of your life! When you finish _Start of Darkness_, please let us know your reactions – I found the ending to be by far the most devastating pages involving stick figures I’ve read to date. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/788 "2009-04-28T17:05:31Z")
I don’t play D&D so can’t argue whether Haley’s behavior was kosher according to the game standards. But I was surprised and rather disappointed in her. I know Crystal has been relentless and vicious to Haley, and I wouldn’t have been taken aback if… 1. They didn’t have a truce, and 2. Crystal hadn’t been naked (nearly) and vulnerable If those two conditions had been in place, Haley’s getting the drop on Crystal would’ve made sense and indeed be fully appropriate. But taking five minutes to decide to murder someone, do so with a lighthearted quip, and kill her using the victim’s own knife, seemed especially coldblooded to me. I know Crystal will probably be resurrected, and death doesn’t mean the same thing in this strip than in others. Still… Yowsa. I almost wondered if Haerta stopped by Haley’s place after leaving Vaarsuvius’s. Put it this way: if _Belkar_ approves, as he obviously does judging by his expression, that’s pretty scary. I mean, at least V had something of an excuse of having been utterly exhausted, on his/her own, recently attacked, terrified for his/her family, enraged by seeing Kyrie nailed to a tree and the kids’ legs broken, and goaded by the soul splice. Haley’s act comes right after she’s been reunited with her boyfriend and surrounded by companions. I don’t think this’ll be a Huge Deal – though I kinda wish it would be – but I’m not sure Rich intends this to be a minor blip on the canvas. I’m really curious to see how Elan reacts, if it ever comes up. Of course he tends to think the very best of his friends, so I doubt he’d judge. Speaking of Elan, good for him for standing up to V! He really has grown up a bit, hasn’t he? I’m dying to know if V really intends to give up the splice so quickly. I sure hope so, but it wouldn’t be as good a story if it were that easy. I don’t quite know the mechanics of how this works: do the spliced souls have the ability to stick around even if V doesn’t want them to? Second question: How does resurrection work? Do the ex-corpses suffer from any after-effects, or do they just go on as if nothing ever happened? I’m just curious to know if Roy will just wake up and go on with his life as if he woke from a nap, or is there some kind of “a Price Must Be Paid” sorta thing? (I also wonder how he’ll react to the changed dynamics of the group; Belkar acting relatively responsibly, Elan more confident / competent, V being psycho…) > [@Hal\_Briston](#): > > Woohoo! My copies of _On The Origin Of PCs_ and _Start Of Darkness_ just showed up in the mail. Consider my work calendar for the day cleared. Ooh! Fun! I ordered those books on Thursday. When did you order yours? Apegames didn’t send me any way to track the shipment. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/789 "2009-04-28T17:29:07Z")
> [@Wargamer](#): > > Wouldn’t a paladin lose his powers by having a Chaotic Democrat as his player? Brilliant! But 20 years too late! :mad: At the time, we simply laughed at him and told him it just wasn’t going to work out, don’t let the door hit him on his way out. > [@choie](#): > > Second question: How does resurrection work? Do the ex-corpses suffer from any after-effects, or do they just go on as if nothing ever happened? I’m just curious to know if Roy will just wake up and go on with his life as if he woke from a nap, or is there some kind of “a Price Must Be Paid” sorta thing? (I also wonder how he’ll react to the changed dynamics of the group; Belkar acting relatively responsibly, Elan more confident / competent, V being psycho…) We’ve seen a [raise dead](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html) in action. As the Oracle alludes to, he lost a level in the process, so needs to get some XP. That would be the price to be paid. It might otherwise be just like waking up from a nap… but it’s currently unclear if Roy will retain memories of what he has observed while deceased. I suspect he will, since there’s more potential for jokes that way. _And_ there’s some payoff waiting from his dead grandpa teaching him that figher feat, which he’ll need to remember for a payoff on that. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/790 "2009-04-28T17:32:15Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > I’m very, _very_ glad I never played D&D and never will play D&D with some of you people. > > Yes, breaking the truce was chaotic. I won’t dispute that, and one could argue it’s within Haley’s alignment. What you didn’t note is that the first point I made wasn’t to prove her act was evil, but rather a response to a previous poster. So much for reading comprehension. > > However, ambushing a victim helpless in the shower? Smart, maybe. Good, _absolutely not_. > > I think a lot of you either were really crappy DMs or played games with really crappy DMs. If you want to set up someone to murder someone else unawares in a house because they’re a priest of an evil god, you set it up properly. Either don’t have any lawful good characters in the party, or make it clear that the evil priest is causing some persist and grave harm to the community. Then, a lawful good party would seek to apprehend the priest, _not_ murder him in his sleep. If you have a good party (bu not lawful), they would confront him in his home, but not murder him unless he refused to come along quietly to the authorities. > > Note that it would be entirely appropriate for the DM to award XP if the Lawful Good characters successfully apprehended the evil priest and took him straight to the authorities. Killing is hardly the only way to get XP in D&D, which some of you apparently utterly fail to realize. > > Ambushing someone to murder them can never be good or lawful, unless a state of war exists or some other clear, hostile-justifying circumstances, which are hardly difficult to construct for anyone with an ounce of imagination. Good God, man. Stop your fucking crying already. It’s nauseating. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/791 "2009-04-28T17:44:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Knorf, killing is not the only way to gain XP in D&D. However, it is the only way that is explicitly quantified by the rules. This is simply not true. According to the rules, XP is awarded for overcoming challenges. First of all, overcoming the challenge posed by a monster does not necessarily mean killing it: The example given in the books is that a stealthy character who successfully sneaks past the guards has overcome the challenge posed by the guards, and therefore earns XP for them. Second, not all things that pose challenges are monsters: Even just going by the books, traps and various natural disasters are also assigned challenge ratings. So disarming a trap and saving your friends from a forest fire would also gain you XP, without any killing required. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/792 "2009-04-28T17:47:03Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So disarming a trap and saving your friends from a forest fire would also gain you XP, without any killing required. That’s some trap! … my players are probably going to hate you. ---
**Author:** ![crazyjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@crazyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazyjoe)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/793 "2009-04-28T17:48:53Z")
Attacking a naked person in the shower – evil. Attacking an evil person, who has shown potential to hunt you down as well as continuing to commit evil acts, who also just happens to be naked in the shower and without a bunch of powerful magic, is certainly not lawful, but it is not EVIL. Creating an undead skeleton from her corpse would be evil, as would using her (completely made up for this example) infant son as bait for a trap to kill her. But being opportunistic is NOT evil. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/794 "2009-04-28T17:55:51Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Good God, man. Stop your fucking crying already. It’s nauseating. This is getting close to the line for this forum, so I would suggest that everybody involved in this side argument to avoid personal insults. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/795 "2009-04-28T18:03:19Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is getting close to the line for this forum, so I would suggest that everybody involved in this side argument to avoid personal insults. Assiduously. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/796 "2009-04-28T18:42:11Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > Redcloak’s whole backstory is based on one such abuse: that it’s perfectly acceptable in D&D terms for paladins (Lawful Good) to rush out and slaughter peaceful towns of goblins (Lawful Evil) simply because they’re goblins. Well, in Redcloak’s case, the paladins don’t rush out and slaughter a peaceful town of goblins simply because they’re goblins, but because the Sapphire Guard believes that the bearer of Crimson Mantle is a threat to creation, and because the Dark God of the goblins plans to usehis champion to release the Snarl and destroy the universe. Of course, it backfires horribly on them, because it means that Redcloak becomes the new bearer of the Crimson Mantle, communicates with the Dark God and decides to do just that, motivated by the slaughter of his village and his renewed devotion to the Dark God. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/797 "2009-04-28T18:58:03Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > I think a lot of you either were really crappy DMs or played games with really crappy DMs. If you want to set up someone to murder someone else unawares in a house because they’re a priest of an evil god, you set it up properly. Either don’t have any lawful good characters in the party, or make it clear that the evil priest is causing some persist and grave harm to the community. Then, a lawful good party would seek to apprehend the priest, _not_ murder him in his sleep. If you have a good party (bu not lawful), they would confront him in his home, but not murder him unless he refused to come along quietly to the authorities. You might want to re-read the post I made, because I think you missed the analogy. It was stated that pre-mediated murder was always evil. Well, a pretty standard D&D adventure is something along the lines of, “Go to the Temple of Really Nasty Evil and kill the high priest.” That’s pre-meditated murder, and it’s also the sort of quest a paladin would have no qualms about accepting. A paladin would balk at waiting until the priest was at his most vulnerable before attacking, but a Chaotic Good character would not. And he still would not be committing an evil act, because taking an unfair advantage over an enemy is not automatically an evil act - it is a chaotic act. > [@](#): > > Ambushing someone to murder them can never be good or lawful, unless a state of war exists or some other clear, hostile-justifying circumstances, which are hardly difficult to construct for anyone with an ounce of imagination. This seems a bit contradictory to me. If it’s so easy to concoct a scenario in which an ambush is good and/or lawful then you can hardly say that such an act can never be good or lawful. If such scenarios are so easy to construct, (and I agree that they are) they would also be pretty common. ---
**Author:** ![Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d9b06d/32.png) [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichini_Sanshigo)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/798 "2009-04-28T19:19:24Z")
In Knorf’s defense, to a non-player such as myself, D&D morality does seem pretty shady and relativistic. Detached from reality. Downright disturbing at times. What really doesn’t help matters is that many people on the Giant forums seem to have trouble distinguishing between what is _good_ and what is _practical_. The optimum course of action in a war game is not necessarily a morally righteous one. What you try to factor in the ostensibly rigid 9-square Alignment matrix, things can get ugly. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/799 "2009-04-28T19:24:54Z")
Sigh…for the second time in this thread alone, I find myself compelled to apologize for getting angry over someone else’s interpretation of D&D alignment rules. **Knorf** , please accept my apology. While I do think that the whole “I’m very, very glad I have never played D&D with any of you” thing was a bit over the top, I shouldn’t have snarled at you. You’re free to play the game however you want. And holy crap. I don’t even PLAY D&D anymore. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/800 "2009-04-28T19:38:48Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You might want to re-read the post I made, because I think you missed the analogy. > > It was stated that pre-mediated murder was always evil. Well, a pretty standard D&D adventure is something along the lines of, “Go to the Temple of Really Nasty Evil and kill the high priest.” That’s pre-meditated murder, and it’s also the sort of quest a paladin would have no qualms about accepting. . Not in any game I’ve ever played. The ones I’ve played have been along the lines of “the priests from the evil temple have kidnapped the Duke’s daughter, and plan to sacrifice her in a ritual that will release the dark god from his imprisonment. Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to rescue the girl and prevent the ritual” Killing the high priest is a probable, but not certain consequence of the mission. He may escape. He may be captured alive. You may turn invisible, sneak in, pick the locks, rescue the girl and sneak out again without bloodshed. Any mission to kill a priest, who is not \*right now \*threatening anyone would count as an assassination. No paladin would accept such a task. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=41)