# Order of the Stick General Discussion Thread (Open Spoilers and Speculation) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 2, 2009, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096 "2009-02-02T07:39:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/801 "2009-04-28T19:42:19Z")
> [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](#): > > In Knorf’s defense, to a non-player such as myself, D&D morality does seem pretty shady and relativistic. Detached from reality. Downright disturbing at times. … The optimum course of action in a war game is not necessarily a morally righteous one. What you try to factor in the ostensibly rigid 9-square Alignment matrix, things can get ugly. True (sans the bits about the GitP fora, on which I cannot comment). That is what the strip is lampshading – the whackyness of living in a world where the D&D alignment system is in effect. _It doesn’t make sense_. I, personally, don’t think it _can_ make sense… as long as you’re using Real World stuff as your frame of reference. Haley whacking Crystal was mean and nasty, but may not be Evil… because of the whacky D&D alignment system and the implications of goofiness such as _raise dead_ being easily available. Doing the same thing in the Real World, would definitely be evil. Fantasy readers in this thread will probably be familiar with Steven Brust’s Draegara series, which doesn’t have an Alignment system, but which does have easily available resurrection. Vlad the assassin sorts out killing by (1) if they’re revivifiable, (2) if they’re not revivifiable, or (3) if their soul is destroyed by a Morghanti blade. Vlad sees (1) more as sending a message. (2) is a bit more extreme, but he’ll resort to that on occasion. (3) he is really, really reluctant to undertake. I mention this because Brust based Draegara on his old D&D campaign. That sort of mindset seems wrong, to us, because in our world _any_ type of killing is a bad thing. But for Vlad (and Haley), some types of killing really are worse than others. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/802 "2009-04-28T19:47:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > This is simply not true. According to the rules, XP is awarded for overcoming challenges. On what page is the chart that explains how much XP a trap is worth? ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/803 "2009-04-28T19:58:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > This is simply not true. According to the rules, XP is awarded for overcoming challenges. First of all, overcoming the challenge posed by a monster does not necessarily mean killing it: The example given in the books is that a stealthy character who successfully sneaks past the guards has overcome the challenge posed by the guards, and therefore earns XP for them. Second, not all things that pose challenges are monsters: Even just going by the books, traps and various natural disasters are also assigned challenge ratings. So disarming a trap and saving your friends from a forest fire would also gain you XP, without any killing required. Rich concurs. [It’s all about the drama.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html) Thinking about Haley and whether what she did was evil, I start to nitpick. Haley didn’t jump Crystal in the shower. She knew that she was going to shower and lured her out by knocking on her door. Crystal was standing next to her knife, in a thieve’s guild, listening to Haley’s voice saying that she was someone that Crystal had never heard of, and Crystal still opens the door unarmed. Stupid. Especially for an assassin. That fits the Crystal character though. She’s not skilled, she just likes to kill. Crystal’s lack of skill and thought is one of the things that bugs Haley. So using Crystal’s stupidity to set her up would leave Haley feeling, I was right, she is too useless to be in her position. And is anyone else thinking that maybe Haley felt boxed into removing Crystal pro-actively by her recent travels with Celia? The lawful good sylph has been cramping Haley’s moves in a serious way. It’s been leaving her vulnerable. This was a definite plugging of a window of vulnerability. (Maybe more by taking Crystal’s knife and talismans than by killing her.) And if Crystal is rezzed, it’s fair warning to the guild that the truce is off. A truce that would never have happened if there had been another fighter there instead of Celia. There has been a series of things Celia has done that have hampered or endangered Haley. I say blame Celia. Turning people in to the authorities has been mentioned. What authority? Even if the authorities are willing to mess with the thieves guild, putting Crystal in a jail cell is just asking for dead guards and Crystal back out with a grudge. Besides, going to the authorities would be a bigger betrayal of the guild than killing any of them would be. Haley would never do that. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/804 "2009-04-28T20:03:30Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > She knew that she was going to shower and lured her out by knocking on her door. Crystal was standing next to her knife, in a thieve’s guild, listening to Haley’s voice saying that she was someone that Crystal had never heard of, and Crystal still opens the door unarmed. Stupid. Especially for an assassin. That’s a very good point. Haley gave Crystal a chance, and Crystal didn’t take it. Too bad for Crystal. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/805 "2009-04-28T20:06:15Z")
Besides which, it’s my understanding that the Thieves’ Guild IS the authority in Greysky City. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/806 "2009-04-28T20:07:33Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > On what page is the chart that explains how much XP a trap is worth? All traps - every single one - are assigned Challenge Ratings. The standard chart is used to determine XP gained. There’s guidance on Trap CRs elsewhere in the DMG. As a general rule a trap based on a spell has a CR of 1 + the spell’s level. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/807 "2009-04-28T20:17:28Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > I’m very, _very_ glad I never played D&D and never will play D&D with some of you people. We can say the same for you. > [@](#): > > Ambushing someone to murder them can never be good or lawful, unless a state of war exists or some other clear, hostile-justifying circumstances, which are hardly difficult to construct for anyone with an ounce of imagination. What is having a personal nemesis if not a permanent state of war? ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/808 "2009-04-28T20:27:17Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Besides which, it’s my understanding that the Thieves’ Guild IS the authority in Greysky City. Actually, there was a military coup by Haley, Belkar, and Celia a while back. Plus, there’s the whole ‘just consent of the governed’ thing. Again, it ties back into the fact that D&D worlds don’t take place in a universe with rule of law, and that privileges generally reserved for state actors can be rationally claimed by individuals. Question: How many people who believes that Haley done wrong have watched Firefly (specifically, the Train Job episode)? How do your feelings about Haley’s actions compare to Mal’s when dealing with Crow? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/809 "2009-04-28T20:33:56Z")
[Here’s a list of traps in the standard rules, sorted by CR](http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/traps.htm). Given the CR of a trap, you calculate the XP it gives in exactly the same way as for a monster (though the CR-XP table isn’t legitimately available online). ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/810 "2009-04-28T21:17:29Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > Actually, there was a military coup by Haley, Belkar, and Celia a while back. Eh? Military coup? Are you perhaps misremembering the Resistance back in Azure City? While in Greysky City, they’ve busted in to Grubwiggler’s and puked up the place, went into hiding with Pete, got betrayed and killled lots of flunkies (later rezzed), negotiated a truce with the Thieves’ Guild, busted back in to Grubbwigglers offscreen, and are now leaving having settled a few last details. Oh, and Belkar hooked up with whatshername the Bard. No military coup. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/811 "2009-04-28T21:23:55Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > Question: How many people who believes that Haley done wrong have watched Firefly (specifically, the Train Job episode)? How do your feelings about Haley’s actions compare to Mal’s when dealing with Crow? Evil act, or at least non-good. A good person by D&D’s alignment would never execute a helpless captive, even one blustering as Crystal and Crow did. Doesn’t make him (or Haley) an evil _person_, though. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/812 "2009-04-28T21:58:51Z")
_wolfman reads entire Order of the stick story line_ _wolfman reads entire thread_ _wolfman must make willpower save vs nostalgia attack_ !!CRITICAL FAILURE!!\* _wolfman pulls out old source books and starts rolling up characters for no purpose whatsoever_ ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/813 "2009-04-28T22:06:31Z")
I was skimming back through the archives, and I discovered something. You know how Haley occasionally mentally personifies some aspect of her personality (the most common one being her goth self-loathing)? Well, in [319](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0319.html), we meet three more of these personifications. And one of them looks EXACTLY like current short-haired Haley. Unfortunately, I don’t think there’s any message or foreshadowing there, because the personification in question is “the part of Haley’s brain that is sick of all this emo crap and wants to get back to comedy.” Or **IS** there? dun dun [DUNNNNN](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html)! ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/814 "2009-04-28T22:42:59Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > True (sans the bits about the GitP fora, on which I cannot comment). > > That is what the strip is lampshading – the whackyness of living in a world where the D&D alignment system is in effect. _It doesn’t make sense_. I, personally, don’t think it _can_ make sense… as long as you’re using Real World stuff as your frame of reference. Education, please. What is the meaning of the term _lampshading_? Is it merely some esoteric/hip way of saying _foreshadowing_? ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/815 "2009-04-28T22:46:47Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Education, please. What is the meaning of the term _lampshading_? Is it merely some esoteric/hip way of saying _foreshadowing_? [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lampshading). [Oots example](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html). ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/816 "2009-04-28T22:50:45Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Eh? Military coup? Are you perhaps misremembering the Resistance back in Azure City? > > While in Greysky City, they’ve busted in to Grubwiggler’s and puked up the place, went into hiding with Pete, got betrayed and killled lots of flunkies (later rezzed), negotiated a truce with the Thieves’ Guild, busted back in to Grubbwigglers offscreen, and are now leaving having settled a few last details. Oh, and Belkar hooked up with whatshername the Bard. > > No military coup. I would have called what Haley and Belkar pulled off against the Guild a coup. The flunkies _were the guild_; we’ve seen no evidence that if the party hadn’t accepted the truce, the Guild leadership wouldn’t have been decapitated. Again, it’s not a matter of great importance; the Guild have even less of a claim on being a legitimate form of government than adventurers do. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/817 "2009-04-29T02:54:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > [Here’s a list of traps in the standard rules, sorted by CR](http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/traps.htm). Given the CR of a trap, you calculate the XP it gives in exactly the same way as for a monster (though the CR-XP table isn’t legitimately available online). Sorry, I don’t recognize any trap scale other than Grimtooth. 😛 Seriously one thing that people have to remember is that D&D’s odd evolution has left a lot of strange artifacts in the rules and as people have blended stuff together over time it has come together oddly. First edition xp was for collecting gold and beating monsters only. Second took away the gold awards and had a small reference to story awards with no guidelines. Third edition finally added the challenge rating system where it gave GM’s a scale to work from. It also doesn’t help that the rules define things according to combat. The ruleset is designed for it and so it will be the first tool in the box that the vast majority of players reach for and the game’s moral system justifies it. I suspect that this is why so many readers reacted so negatively to Celia. She took objection to D&D morality and the flimsy justifications that go along with it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/818 "2009-04-29T03:59:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Education, please. What is the meaning of the term lampshading? Is it merely some esoteric/hip way of saying foreshadowing? In retrospect, I’ll concede that foreshadowing is probably closer to what I was thinking than lampshading. Unless there’s a third term that expresses the idea “an incident that happens in a story that doesn’t appear to fit in with the overall story as it was related up to that point but calls enough attention to itself that it seems to be put there for a reason so you think it probably will be related to future events in the story.” ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/819 "2009-04-29T04:12:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > In retrospect, I’ll concede that foreshadowing is probably closer to what I was thinking than lampshading. Unless there’s a third term that expresses the idea “an incident that happens in a story that doesn’t appear to fit in with the overall story as it was related up to that point but calls enough attention to itself that it seems to be put there for a reason so you think it probably will be related to future events in the story.” Chekov’s gun. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/820 "2009-04-29T05:38:33Z")
Chekov’s gun is also simular. But my understanding of a Chekhov’s gun is that it is an indication that something is going to happen in the latter part of the story. The situation here (in my opinion) is that the event has happened and now we’re waiting to see the reason it happened. (In story terms. It’s not an issue of what reason Haley had for killing Crystal. The question is what reason did Burlew have for Haley killing Crystal.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=42)