# Order of the Stick General Discussion Thread (Open Spoilers and Speculation) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 2, 2009, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096 "2009-02-02T07:39:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/901 "2009-05-04T02:53:08Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > Which is exactly why you should expect Belkar to kill Vaarsuvius–you’re not expecting it. That kind of thinking was what was leading people to expect Roy’s rez to happen in #650. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/902 "2009-05-04T03:02:26Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Except that every time it comes up, everyone conveniently ignores the fact that the Oracle – and everyone else in that [scene](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) – wasn’t buying those theories, either. > > That was a _joke_ working itself out. Each explanation of whose death Belkar had caused was more forced than the last, until it got to the point where Belkar fulfilled the prophecy the way that the Oracle knew he would. By the structure of the joke, whatever Belkar might end up doing to V will have a more convoluted connection to “killing” than Miko’s horse being stuck in the afterlife indirectly because of Belkar. > > Expecting that Belkar will somehow end up responsible for V’s death is missing the point of that joke entirely. Even if the joke was that the explanations were becoming more strenuous (which it was before but it wasn’t there) there still has to be some tenuous link between Belkar and V’s death. I find it a lot more likely that V was last in the list because the oracle was going in the order of deaths (skipping her own) and V wasn’t dead yet. So even if it was a joke about tenuous connections then there _still has to be a tenuous connection_. And I don’t think it was; I think the joke was the V was going to be the real one and the oracle got cut off by her own murder. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/903 "2009-05-04T03:53:25Z")
I keep going back and forth about what Rich would do here. He loves to screw with our expectations, that much is certain. So what do we expect? Well, on the one hand, the whole Order (those that were shown reacting to V’s decision) was certain this was a Very Bad Idea. Most of _us_ think it’s a crazy idea. We all know there’s no realistic way that Xykon’s role in the story is through, and besides, dramatically speaking, V’s hubris is dooming him or her. Xykon has an assload of goblins and hobgoblins, not to mention Redcloak’s cleric skills (that divine magic that V, perhaps in an intentional bitter irony, dismisses as ‘not real’ in this very strip) and the wildcard of the Monster in the Dark. Then there’s the hint that we saw after the battle with the dragon of what might be V’s downfall: V getting shocked by Kyrie’s response and losing control of the necromancer spirit. It’s quite possible that Xykon will say something to rattle V enough to lose the hold on the other two subcontractors, leaving poor V on his/her own, vulnerable and doomed. With all this against V, it would seem that V almost _has_ to lose, pretty horrifically. So perhaps Rich will twist things and have V will win after all, even if it’s only a temporary victory. On the other hand: just looking at this as far as power goes, V is waaay more powerful right now than the lich. Even without the third ‘subcontractor’, V’s got access to two of the most vicious, destructive, raving looney-tunes mage / sorcerers in history, not to mention V’s own not inconsiderable skills. V also has the advantage of surprise and (perhaps) more intelligence, although whether intellitgence matters in such a fight is certainly questionable (especially without wisdom, which V seems to lack these days). Further, V is, at the moment, desperate to prove that his/her nefarious bargain was _not_ all for naught. S/he saved Kyrie and the kids, but ‘lost’ them anyway; s/he didn’t find Haley or get to bring everyone together. Now s/he’s got a single purpose left with time ticking away. No longer making grandiose speeches , girlfriend (or boyfriend) is on a grim, businesslike mission, focused on getting the job done. This is one Dangerous Elf. Given all this, and assuming Redcloak and the MitD aren’t in Xykon’s immediate vicinity, V seems to have a lock on such a battle. Therefore, confounding our expectations might mean Rich plans a loss for V. In short … yeah, I have no freakin’ idea what the guy is gonna do. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/904 "2009-05-04T04:36:55Z")
Given Xykon’s informal, laconic approach to things, I suspect he’s going to treat V as a fellow evil being. “Hey! You could really help our organization!” He’ll say things similar to that that are _just_ offensive enough that V gets rattled and doesn’t immediately open up a can of whup-ass, possibly to the point that V loses one or both splices. Then it’s just V versus a very smug Xykon and friends. Xykon’s laid-back, but he knows his evil. For those who’ve read _Start of Darkness_, he skewered Redcloak straight through the heart the same way. Just so it’s not a total loss, I predict Xykon will lose his phylactery before he can shake V up. I don’t think Redcloak will die, but it could be a near thing. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/905 "2009-05-04T04:50:26Z")
> [@choie](#): > > V getting shocked by Kyrie’s response and losing control of the necromancer spirit. Wait, the mate is named Kyrie? That’s quite the amusing allusion, isn’t it. ---
**Author:** ![cletus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@cletus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cletus)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/906 "2009-05-04T04:53:08Z")
According to the Oracle, Xykon is destined to go to Gerald’s cave next IIRC. I very much doubt he will be killed by V. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/907 "2009-05-04T05:06:18Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > As we all know, Belkar’s secretly in love with Vaarsuvius. Nonono, lust. LUST. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/908 "2009-05-04T05:35:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Even if the joke was that the explanations were becoming more strenuous (which it was before but it wasn’t there) there still has to be some tenuous link between Belkar and V’s death. I find it a lot more likely that V was last in the list because the oracle was going in the order of deaths (skipping her own) and V wasn’t dead yet. > > So even if it was a joke about tenuous connections then there still has to be a tenuous connection. And I don’t think it was; I think the joke was the V was going to be the real one and the oracle got cut off by her own murder. Or maybe the tenuous connection has already happened. Roy’s words in the current strip foreshadow that Vaarsuvius will end up a ghost like Roy is. V’s current state is largely attributable to his obssession with locating Haley, Belkar, and Roy’s body. And the Oracle already made the argument that Belkar was the cause of Roy’s death. So if Vaarsuvius gets killed by Xykon then the Oracle could have made the argument that Belkar was the cause. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/909 "2009-05-04T05:42:29Z")
The Oracle knew that he’d get cut off there in mid-sentence, so he didn’t even need to have an end to “And as for the elf…”. Or he could have just been saying “And as for the elf, you have nothing at all whatsoever to do with that death”. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/910 "2009-05-04T13:13:47Z")
> [@Just\_Some\_Guy](#): > > Even if the joke was that the explanations were becoming more strenuous (which it was before but it wasn’t there) there still has to be some tenuous link between Belkar and V’s death. I find it a lot more likely that V was last in the list because the oracle was going in the order of deaths (skipping her own) and V wasn’t dead yet. > > So even if it was a joke about tenuous connections then there _still has to be a tenuous connection_. And I don’t think it was; I think the joke was the V was going to be the real one and the oracle got cut off by her own murder. Again, misses the point of the progression in that joke. The last example prior to mention of the elf was Miko’s horse. Miko’s horse _was not dead_. The progression in that joke was that the next example would be even more tenuous a connection to Belkar killing someone _who wasn’t dead_. It was never going to be V as the victim. The Oracle clearly knew that he was going to get killed, and was trying in vain to change that fact. He’d planned the village of Lickmyorangeballshalfling and the lizard folk rez duo because he knew that was the outcome. _And_ he stated, clearly, that even _he_ didn’t buy into any of his own wild rationalizations. V is probably going to die before the end of the strip – only Elan is guarenteed a happy ending, after all. But it ain’t going to be Belkar causing V’s death. _He_ doesn’t get a happy ending, either. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/911 "2009-05-04T16:32:26Z")
> [@](#): > > The last example prior to mention of the elf was Miko’s horse. Miko’s horse was not dead. The progression in that joke was that the next example would be even more tenuous a connection to Belkar killing someone who wasn’t dead. Or it could have been in chronological order. Roy was the first one killed, then Miko, and then Miko’s horse was sent to the afterlife. Vaarsuvius was still alive. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/912 "2009-05-04T17:14:03Z")
If it was chronological order, then that misses the _joke_, that the Oracle is throwing out wilder and wilder theories in a desperate attempt to prevent Belkar from realizing that the only person he had been prophecied to kill was the Oracle himself. ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/913 "2009-05-04T17:31:17Z")
I just wanted to point out that Roy unequivocally refers to Vaarsuvius as “him” in #650. Let the speculation begin! ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/914 "2009-05-04T17:36:58Z")
> [@Reno\_Nevada](#): > > I just wanted to point out that Roy unequivocally refers to Vaarsuvius as “him” in #650. Let the speculation begin! Eh, they all have their opinions on V’s gender. It’s easier to pick him or her and just stick with it, and V doesn’t seem to care. I’m sure you can find instances of various teammates using either one in the past. My friend with whom I talk about OotS gets huffy if I do that, though, so I’ve taken to just using V whenever I talk about V. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/915 "2009-05-04T17:52:27Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > Wait, the mate is named Kyrie? That’s quite the amusing allusion, isn’t it. ?? ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/916 "2009-05-04T18:46:58Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > ?? Kyrie (which V uses as a nickname for V’s mate, Inkyrius) is famous as part of the Greek phrase “Kyrie Eleison,” used in Christian services – mostly Catholic, I believe – and is commonly translated as “Lord, have mercy.” I agree it’s a fascinating little reference, especially in this context. Or maybe Rich Burlew is a big fan of [Mr. Mister](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNKbHJ3PTu4&feature=related). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/917 "2009-05-04T20:23:19Z")
> [@Reno\_Nevada](#): > > I just wanted to point out that Roy unequivocally refers to Vaarsuvius as “him” in #650. Let the speculation begin! He’s pretty much always done that, though. He refers to V as ‘V-man’ in one of the earliest strips. I wouldn’t read too much into it either way. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/918 "2009-05-04T21:40:05Z")
> [@choie](#): > > Kyrie (which V uses as a nickname for V’s mate, Inkyrius)… V’s partner’s name is also a play on the word ‘incurious’. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/919 "2009-05-04T22:19:45Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > If it was chronological order, then that misses the _joke_, that the Oracle is throwing out wilder and wilder theories in a desperate attempt to prevent Belkar from realizing that the only person he had been prophecied to kill was the Oracle himself. No, the joke would still be there leaving V open. Then let’s put it this way: is it funnier for the Oracle to get cut off saying some wild excuse for V or “As for the elf, you stab that one in the eye.”? ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/920 "2009-05-04T23:01:21Z")
> [@Just\_Some\_Guy](#): > > Then let’s put it this way: is it funnier for the Oracle to get cut off saying some wild excuse for V or “As for the elf, you stab that one in the eye.”? For it to be funnier for the Oracle to have been cut off saying something like that, there would have had to have been some – _any_ – indication that such a punchline was coming. There was not. Any. At all. Whatsoever. That is how jokes work. The structure of this joke is completely obvious – so long as you’re not trying to hang some torturously fanwanked theory on it. The Oracle even called back that all his other examples were not applicable. Let me put it this way: would the Oracle have said “I really wasn’t buying those theories either” if he actually _had_ an answer like that to grab Belkar’s attention? He was _clearly_ trying to distract Belkar, hence his saying “Worth a shot tho…” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=47)