# Order of the Stick General Discussion Thread (Open Spoilers and Speculation) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 2, 2009, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096 "2009-02-02T07:39:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 52
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1021 "2009-05-11T03:17:16Z")
I’m inclined to guess that splicing is rare but Redcloak is smart. I can’t help but note that things would have been a lot more even if Redcloak wasn’t there. He provided the info Xykon needed and got him to ward the tower against a common threat. Without that things would have been a lot more even. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1022 "2009-05-11T03:20:56Z")
> [@Just\_Some\_Guy](#): > > I’m inclined to guess that splicing is rare but Redcloak is smart. > > I can’t help but note that things would have been a lot more even if Redcloak wasn’t there. He provided the info Xykon needed and got him to ward the tower against a common threat. Without that things would have been a lot more even. Redcloak has always been Xykon’s better judgment. Redcloak is, in a way, Xykon’s Durkon…he’s got the wisdom that Xykon doesn’t. Xykon’s got the big INT, but he’s not really very insightful (or foresightful). He’s more of a big-picture guy…he lets Redcloak take care of those annoying little details. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1023 "2009-05-11T04:16:14Z")
I do find it interesting/amusng that Xykon agrees with me : > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I don’t know about that; there’s fates worse than ending up a walking corpse in D&D. Someone not inclined to religion in the Forgotten Realms might choose to become a lich or other undead just to avoid the Wall of the Faithless, for example. Or even as a means of avoiding the normal Lower Planes; in a world where a hellish afterlife actually exists for the evil, it’s kind of odd that the majority of evil types don’t get themselves vampired or lichified or something of the kind. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1024 "2009-05-11T04:16:56Z")
One might also ask what Vaarsuvius was planning on using the Time Stop _for_… It’s mostly useful for casting buff spells, since you can’t effect enemies directly, but V’s already cast all of the best buff spells available to em in the fight against the dragon, and all of them should still have plenty of time left on their durations. Maybe energy immunity to fire and lightning in addition to acid, but the Energy Drains are Xykon’s real killers, and Death Ward isn’t on the sor/wiz list. Really, V’s best bet at this point is probably Shapechange, to turn into that pink dragon again. Or maybe into whatever the Monster in the Dark is, since he’s apparently not unique. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1025 "2009-05-11T05:08:59Z")
You know what? Xykon deserves to win. He may be evil and all, but at least he earned his powers fair and square. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1026 "2009-05-11T05:32:54Z")
> [@](#): > > You know what? Xykon deserves to win. He may be evil and all, but at least he earned his powers fair and square. I’ll admit I’m not very familiar with D&D rules. But I thought the point of being a sorcerer (like Xykon) is that you get your magic essentially for free (I assume it’s some genetic trait). We’ve seen wizards belittling Xykon and other sorcerers because they didn’t earn their magic through years of studying. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1027 "2009-05-11T06:03:14Z")
Sorcerers may get to 1st level for “free”, but Xykon worked as hard as anyone for the next twenty-odd levels. Experience is experience, and you don’t gain it by twiddling your thumbs - or by making deals with fiends. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1028 "2009-05-11T06:11:11Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’ll admit I’m not very familiar with D&D rules. But I thought the point of being a sorcerer (like Xykon) is that you get your magic essentially for free (I assume it’s some genetic trait). We’ve seen wizards belittling Xykon and other sorcerers because they didn’t earn their magic through years of studying. Yes, it’s true Sorc’s get their spells “just because” rather than working for them. However, I suspect Alessan is refering to the fact that Xykon turned himself into a Lich, and got his high level spell slots the hard way : by slaughtering a LOT of little chunks of XP. By comparison, V took a shortcut to power. Power you didn’t earn, you seldom value or learn to control, its drawbacks etc… In essence, V bought Jimi Hendrix’s guitar off eBay, and now he’s noticing he can’t play it like Jimi 😛 ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1029 "2009-05-11T09:26:25Z")
Hmm I wonder if Xykon has the power to command V’s will while bolstering it to maintain the pact. That would suck, if he ended up spending 100 years as Xykon’s slave, then break free only to have to be a slave for another 100 years to pay back the pact debt. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1030 "2009-05-11T11:39:55Z")
So, a bit of number-crunching. Let’s say Xykon is a nice, round level 30th level lich. That’s an equally nice round 30x6.5 = 195 hit points. That empowered Sunburst? Averages in at 37.5 x 3.5 = 131.25 points of damage. Ironic that Xykon’s going on about staying power; another few of those, and he’ll be out of the game entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1031 "2009-05-11T12:35:51Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > One might also ask what Vaarsuvius was planning on using the Time Stop _for_… It’s mostly useful for casting buff spells, since you can’t effect enemies directly, but V’s already cast all of the best buff spells available to em in the fight against the dragon, and all of them should still have plenty of time left on their durations. One of the spells V cast during Time Stop in [the fight with the dragon](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html) was a Delayed Blast Fireball; s/he might be planning to repeat that tactic. > [@Bosstone](#): > > But what puzzles me is Redcloak saying “I should have known immediately.” [The three demons](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html) imply that this is something unique or at least incredibly rare. Does Redcloak really have that many ranks of Knowledge/religion? :dubious: IIRC from Start of Darkness, the Crimson Mantle gives Redcloak access to the Dark One’s knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1032 "2009-05-11T13:13:45Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Redcloak has always been Xykon’s better judgment. Redcloak is, in a way, Xykon’s Durkon…he’s got the wisdom that Xykon doesn’t. Xykon’s got the big INT, but he’s not really very insightful (or foresightful). He’s more of a big-picture guy…he lets Redcloak take care of those annoying little details. Xykon is a sorcerer – he doesn’t have high Int, he’s got high CHA. If anything, he’s been shown to be a bit deficient on both Int and Wis, although quite cunning. Redcloak, as a cleric, obviously has a high Wis. He’s also got quite a high Int from what we’ve seen. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1033 "2009-05-11T13:18:05Z")
> [@Just\_Some\_Guy](#): > > I can’t help but note that things would have been a lot more even if Redcloak wasn’t there. He provided the info Xykon needed and got him to ward the tower against a common threat. Without that things would have been a lot more even. If I can amend my earlier post, Xykon is badass, but Redcloak is dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1034 "2009-05-11T13:27:37Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > In essence, V bought Jimi Hendrix’s guitar off eBay, and now he’s noticing he can’t play it like Jimi 😛 Oooh! Good 'un. Looks bad for the elf. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1035 "2009-05-11T13:37:30Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Xykon is a sorcerer – he doesn’t have high Int, he’s got high CHA. If anything, he’s been shown to be a bit deficient on both Int and Wis, although quite cunning. > > Redcloak, as a cleric, obviously has a high Wis. He’s also got quite a high Int from what we’ve seen. I keep forgetting that Xykie is a sorcerer. You’re absolutely right. ---
**Author:** ![tanstaafl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba8739/32.png) [@tanstaafl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tanstaafl)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1036 "2009-05-11T14:54:38Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > In essence, V bought Jimi Hendrix’s guitar off eBay, and now he’s noticing he can’t play it like Jimi 😛 While yours is the more easily visualized analogy, I was thinking more of someone who shells out cash to pay for a high-level character in WoW or whatever. You wind up with a player who had a character that technically has all these high-level abilities with no idea as to how to use them effectively. So far V has pretty much been using brute magical force for everything with no thought to subtlety or finesse, or even a plan beyond the magical equivalent of nuking them from orbit. V may claim to have rushed off in order to minimize the time owed to the demons for the debt, but going up against Xyklon without a plan was probably not the best idea. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1037 "2009-05-11T15:20:07Z")
> [@tanstaafl](#): > > While yours is the more easily visualized analogy, I was thinking more of someone who shells out cash to pay for a high-level character in WoW or whatever. You wind up with a player who had a character that technically has all these high-level abilities with no idea as to how to use them effectively. Heh, that was the first analogy that came to my mind actually, but then I wondered if “real people” (read : non-gamers) would get the tragic stupidity that is the eBay WoW character purchase :D. So I went with a more “universal” example. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1038 "2009-05-11T16:16:07Z")
> [@](#): > > That would suck, if he ended up spending 100 years as Xykon’s slave, then break free only to have to be a slave for another 100 years to pay back the pact debt. 300 - each of the fiends gets a term of service equal to the original term. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1039 "2009-05-11T16:18:01Z")
And we still haven’t seen the backlash from the Familicide yet. I’m pretty sure there’s going to be a rather large draconic posse after V’s blood. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1040 "2009-05-11T16:21:05Z")
> [@](#): > > So far V has pretty much been using brute magical force for everything with no thought to subtlety or finesse, or even a plan beyond the magical equivalent of nuking them from orbit. V may claim to have rushed off in order to minimize the time owed to the demons for the debt, but going up against Xyklon without a plan was probably not the best idea. Ironically, that’s pretty much the way Xykon does things as well. The difference is that Xykon is experienced at doing this - he’s learned how to use brute force effectively. Vaarsuvius is trying to beat Xykon in his area of expertise. He’d have been better off trying to outthink Xykon rather than outsmash him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=51) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=53)