# Order of the Stick General Discussion Thread (Open Spoilers and Speculation) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 2, 2009, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096 "2009-02-02T07:39:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 66
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1301 "2009-05-21T02:43:36Z")
> [@](#): > > shantih’s right, this isn’t Xykon’s final battle by a long shot. In addition to the Oracle’s prophecy, there’s the unresolved business with Xykon’s hypnotic instructions to the MitD from _Start of Darkness_. Burlew wouldn’t have put it in the book unless there was going to be a pay-off to it at some future point. That hasn’t happened yet so Xykon, Redcloak, and the MitD must all survive this current situation. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1302 "2009-05-21T04:08:46Z")
Xykon is only hanging around Azure City because he believes that Redcloak needs information from O-Chul (see [here](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html)). If O-Chul dies, Xykon has no reason to stick around. This could be what gets team evil moving towards Girard’s gate. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1303 "2009-05-21T04:47:54Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > I’m pretty sure smite doesn’t make an attack magic, the weapon has to be magic. Not smite evil…what I noted earlier is that O-Chul could cast _bless weapon_ on the bar he’s wielding, which **does** make it effectively a magic weapon for bypassing DR. (And, as I noted in the earlier post, _bless weapon_ doesn’t require a material or focus component, so, as long as he had it prepared, he could cast it.) ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1304 "2009-05-21T05:23:50Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > Xykon is only hanging around Azure City because he believes that Redcloak needs information from O-Chul (see [here](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html)). If O-Chul dies, Xykon has no reason to stick around. This could be what gets team evil moving towards Girard’s gate. I have a feeling Redcloak may make a few more excuses, as attached as Redcloak is to his “plan,” I don’t think he’s done savoring his victory over the Azurites. I’m wondering if between resolving his primary/initial driving factor (being raided by Azurites) and all that Xykon has put the hobgoblins through if that eye loss isn’t foreshadowing that he’s going to go the way of his brother and attempt a betrayal or other insubordination. He’s already shown traits of the Dark One’s backstory, he brought an entire tribe of hobgoblins to respect him after the goblins were gone, I’m wondering if he may even be looking at demigod-hood after he inevitably fails from having the MitD eat him. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1305 "2009-05-21T05:26:47Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > O-Chul seems to be the type who sees what he needs to do and does it in the most direct way. He’s not the type to talk about it first. So I’m sure he’ll destroy the phylactery immediately unless he has a very good reason to keep it. Yeah, that’s how I figure V survives. O-chul is smart enough to know destroying the emblem isn’t a game ender, so I figure he will use it as collateral and distraction enough to save V’s life, because that may be decisive, remember O loves strategy games and understands the short game, the long game and the meta game, and V might be worth it. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1306 "2009-05-21T11:52:44Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > He’s already cast it sometime previously, he’s just triggering the effect now. In D&D, a Cleric’s spells are prepared ahead of time (except for a few he can spontaneously cast). The key is whether the Cleric needs his holy symbol to cast a particular spell (it’s not automatically required). Word of Recall requires only the speaking of a word. > [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > yeah, but at that point his body had been destroyed, so destruction of the phylactery would have been death for him (end of unlife… whatever) If it is destroyed now, he can make another one can’t he? Not by the rules. A lich can make one, and only one, phylactery. While Giant is not above bending rules for comedic purposes, it’s not clear he’s done that in this situation. As a note, it is surprisingly hard to break a phylactery; the process of creating it makes it much tougher than the materials it was made of; the specification given suggests that the item becomes about as tough as adamantium. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1307 "2009-05-21T13:36:52Z")
> [@MHaye](#): > > Not by the rules. A lich can make one, and only one, phylactery. Actually, an easy check of the SRD [lich rules](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) shows no such restriction. However, the [demilich rules](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm) note that they have 8 soul gems which act as phylacteries. That would seem to indicate that liches have some way of gaining more phylacteries, as they do so on their way to demilichdom. I’ve long since chucked my 3.X books in favor of 4e funness, but whatever the 3.X undead splatbook was probably went into more detail than the SRD. ---
**Author:** ![Wolverine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wolverine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolverine)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1308 "2009-05-21T14:44:32Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Actually, an easy check of the SRD [lich rules](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) shows no such restriction. > > However, the [demilich rules](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm) note that they have 8 soul gems which act as phylacteries. That would seem to indicate that liches have some way of gaining more phylacteries, as they do so on their way to demilichdom. According to the source you quoted, demiliches can use the soul gems as phylacteries; it says nothing about liches. I could equally interpret the creation rule as meaning a lich can’t use the soul gems as phylacteries until it becomes a demilich. All 8 or nothing. As has been said many times, it doesn’t matter was the rules are because Burlew is free to interpret them anyway he wants for the story. My prediction: O-Chul destroys the phylactery, seriously injures Xykon, and allows V to escape. Xykon is on un-death’s door when he summons the CitD to kill O-Chul using the hypnosis mentioned earlier (as soon as I get back to the States, I’ll buy & read _Start of Darkness_, I swear). The CitD is revealed, kills O-Chul, retreats back to the shadows to examine life and eventually becomes its own side (hopefully helping the Order of the Stick). ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1309 "2009-05-21T14:55:04Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Actually, an easy check of the SRD [lich rules](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) shows no such restriction. > > However, the [demilich rules](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm) note that they have 8 soul gems which act as phylacteries. That would seem to indicate that liches have some way of gaining more phylacteries, as they do so on their way to demilichdom. I rooted the statement out after posting; it’s in the 3.5 FAQ. There’s no wiggle room in that particular statement. I’d argue that the soul gems are made by the lich as part of the process of becoming a demilich, and can only be made as part of the ritual - since the gems become part of the demiliches corporeal existence. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1310 "2009-05-21T15:40:55Z")
> [@Wolverine](#): > > Xykon is on un-death’s door when he summons the CitD to kill O-Chul using the hypnosis mentioned earlier (as soon as I get back to the States, I’ll buy & read _Start of Darkness_, I swear). I read it last night; the panel in question is something like, “And if Redcloak ever betrays me…” etc. I don’t think the Monster in the Darkness has any particular compulsion to obey Xykon other than this. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1311 "2009-05-21T16:36:10Z")
> [@](#): > > I read it last night; the panel in question is something like, “And if Redcloak ever betrays me…” etc. _“And if Redcloak ever betrays me, you will devour him whole and spit out that gold amulet he wears.”_ No threat to O-Chul or anyone else included. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1312 "2009-05-21T16:43:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Yeah, that’s how I figure V survives. O-chul is smart enough to know destroying the emblem isn’t a game ender, so I figure he will use it as collateral and distraction enough to save V’s life, because that may be decisive, remember O loves strategy games and understands the short game, the long game and the meta game, and V might be worth it. I’d see the opposite. O-Chul will see stopping Xykon as the goal not saving Vaarsuvius or anyone else if it requires straying from stopping Xykon. To use a chess rather than a go analogy, O-Chul understands that protecting your pieces is a good idea but the point of the game is checkmating your opponent not protecting your pieces. If you have to sacrifice some pieces to get that checkmate, you do it. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1313 "2009-05-22T07:03:31Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > To use a chess rather than a go analogy, O-Chul understands that protecting your pieces is a good idea but the point of the game is checkmating your opponent not protecting your pieces. If you have to sacrifice some pieces to get that checkmate, you do it. That sounds rather un-paladinish to me, and doesn’t work at all for Go. If he isn’t going to save V, I think a better theory (which _does_ work for Go) is that sometimes you must recognise when a piece (or chain) is already lost, and not let trying to save it doom your entire strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Wolverine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wolverine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolverine)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1314 "2009-05-22T09:01:40Z")
All this conversation assumes that O-Chul knows right now about V’s identity. So far, no one has recognized this strange elf that has teleported into the room. O-Chul might believe that both of them are evil and he’s just using this as an opportunity to damage Team Evil. He might not know that the elf is “innocent” and needs protecting. ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1315 "2009-05-22T14:34:17Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > That sounds rather un-paladinish to me, and doesn’t work at all for Go. If he isn’t going to save V, I think a better theory (which _does_ work for Go) is that sometimes you must recognise when a piece (or chain) is already lost, and not let trying to save it doom your entire strategy. The form that a sacrifice takes in Go is to play stones into the middle of a surrounded space, so that there is no chance that they will not be captured–but by capturing them the enemy is prevented from creating two eyes. Having written that, I have no clever analogy to draw with O-Chul’s current situation. But I just wanted to note that Go does have sacrifice plays. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1316 "2009-05-22T16:26:42Z")
> [@Wolverine](#): > > All this conversation assumes that O-Chul knows right now about V’s identity. O-Chul did meet V in Azure City, and they fought to defend it together, so it’s at least possible he recognizes him. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1317 "2009-05-22T16:39:54Z")
A new thought occurred as I was browsing through the archives: A foundation was laid some time ago for an [Azure City prisoner uprising](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0547.html). This would seem like a great time for them to strike. If Xykon comes out of this alive (and I’m pretty well certain that he will), I think he’s about to be driven out of Azure City. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1318 "2009-05-22T17:26:00Z")
OK, so…demiliches. Am I to understand that a lich may transform itself into a demilich? What’s the upside? At least liches have mobility, right? Why would a lich decide to concentrate its essence into a single part of its anatomy, just for the advantage of being able to steal the occasional soul that wanders by its well-hidden and protected crypt? Talk about catch-as-catch-can. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1319 "2009-05-22T17:44:44Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > OK, so…demiliches. Am I to understand that a lich may transform itself into a demilich? What’s the upside? At least liches have mobility, right? Why would a lich decide to concentrate its essence into a single part of its anatomy, just for the advantage of being able to steal the occasional soul that wanders by its well-hidden and protected crypt? Talk about catch-as-catch-can. Demiliches can fly, instead of needing spells to do so. They’re also way harder to kill, and get tons of free spells they can cast whenever they want. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1320 "2009-05-22T17:46:49Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > A new thought occurred as I was browsing through the archives: > > A foundation was laid some time ago for an [Azure City prisoner uprising](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0547.html). This would seem like a great time for them to strike. If Xykon comes out of this alive (and I’m pretty well certain that he will), I think he’s about to be driven out of Azure City. You make a very good point. Once this situation is resolved, the larger story needs to get moving again. If there is an uprising in Azure City from the prisoners and rebels led by Thanh, it could make things rough enough on a weakened Redcloak and Xykon that they gather together their remaining forces and finally have a reason to leave and go after the next gate. Xykon has been ready to go since the Azure City gate was destroyed; the only thing keeping them in place is Redcloak’s intention to turn Azure City into a safe home for the hobgoblins. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=65) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=67)