# Order of the Stick General Discussion Thread (Open Spoilers and Speculation) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 2, 2009, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096 "2009-02-02T07:39:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 67
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1321 "2009-05-22T17:49:57Z")
[Demiliches](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm) are even more powerful than regular liches are. They don’t give up mobility; the remaining head can fly around at very high speed (about six times the speed of a human, with perfect maneuverability). Meanwhile, they gain virtual immunity to most attack forms, some very scary attacks, effectively a bunch more phylacteries, and the ability to keep all of their equipment hidden away with their phylactery, not on their person. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1322 "2009-05-22T19:21:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > [Demiliches](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm) are even more powerful than regular liches are. They don’t give up mobility; the remaining head can fly around at very high speed (about six times the speed of a human, with perfect maneuverability). Meanwhile, they gain virtual immunity to most attack forms, some very scary attacks, effectively a bunch more phylacteries, and the ability to keep all of their equipment hidden away with their phylactery, not on their person. OK, yikes. Fair enough. Although it would be amusing if Xykon became a demilich. I’m sure Burlew would make much comedic hay out of Xykon’s resulting lack of manual dexterity (y’know, if he used his skull. It would either be HILARIOUS or not funny at all if Xykon showed up as a patellar demilich). ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1323 "2009-05-22T19:35:31Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > OK, yikes. Fair enough. Although it would be amusing if Xykon became a demilich. I’m sure Burlew would make much comedic hay out of Xykon’s resulting lack of manual dexterity (y’know, if he used his skull. It would either be HILARIOUS or not funny at all if Xykon showed up as a patellar demilich). Ogres are big and mean and fierce, but apparently, they aren’t very good at logic. That post made very little sense. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1324 "2009-05-22T19:40:23Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Ogres are big and mean and fierce, but apparently, they aren’t very good at logic. That post made very little sense. I thought it made sense. And I was sitting here trying not to laugh out loud at the thought of a patellar demilich…because it would be SO Xykon! Regular skull demilich isn’t original enough for him! He has to be UNIQUE! ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Shine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr_shine/32/464_2.png) [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1325 "2009-05-22T19:42:33Z")
> [@](#): > > If Xykon comes out of this alive (and I’m pretty well certain that he will) I’m pretty certain that he won’t:D ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1326 "2009-05-22T19:54:25Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I thought it made sense. And I was sitting here trying not to laugh out loud at the thought of a patellar demilich…because it would be SO Xykon! Regular skull demilich isn’t original enough for him! He has to be UNIQUE! 😃 …with his little crown that makes him look really badass. I just meant that he would lack manual dexterity as a patella as much as if were a skull. I dunno. I’m trying to read about ITS and chloroplast topologies and thinking about OOTS at the same time… ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1327 "2009-05-22T20:14:14Z")
Back to the discussion of alignment for a sec: Is neutral evil the “evillest of the evil” alignments? I’ve never been able to get my head 100% around the idea of neutral evil, but my closest idea of it is “sociopath”. I envision this alignment as someone who can function perfectly convincingly in a social environment, but then go home and plan and execute a brutal murder with absolute seamlessness. Are the really nasty, long-term serial killers (not spree killers. I see them as more chaotic evil) neutral evil, or am I off base here? ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1328 "2009-05-22T20:22:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > [Demiliches](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm) are even more powerful than regular liches are. They don’t give up mobility; the remaining head can fly around at very high speed (about six times the speed of a human, with perfect maneuverability). Meanwhile, they gain virtual immunity to most attack forms, some very scary attacks, effectively a bunch more phylacteries, and the ability to keep all of their equipment hidden away with their phylactery, not on their person. So how do you take down a demilich? I assume your party has to be pretty much god-like? With a bunch of high-fortitude warriors with epic blunt instruments? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1329 "2009-05-22T21:20:06Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > So how do you take down a demilich? I assume your party has to be pretty much god-like? With a bunch of high-fortitude warriors with epic blunt instruments? I reckon that even a 20th level character could defeat the example demilich, if it’s optimised for an “alpha strike”. DR 15 isn’t actually that good against dedicated chargers like Paladins or Frenzied Berserkers. A Wu Jen gish would probably work too, if you like the idea of beating the demilich to death with a tree. Of course, if it sees you before you see it, you’re in for a tougher fight. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1330 "2009-05-22T21:20:20Z")
Eh. I think I could do it with a party of three 13th level characters. (wis damage) ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1331 "2009-05-22T21:26:08Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > I’m pretty certain that he won’t:D Well, you know what I mean. [Not _alive_, exactly, but…well, still up and moving around](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html). ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1332 "2009-05-22T21:34:25Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Back to the discussion of alignment for a sec: > > Is neutral evil the “evillest of the evil” alignments? I’ve never been able to get my head 100% around the idea of neutral evil, but my closest idea of it is “sociopath”. I envision this alignment as someone who can function perfectly convincingly in a social environment, but then go home and plan and execute a brutal murder with absolute seamlessness. Are the really nasty, long-term serial killers (not spree killers. I see them as more chaotic evil) neutral evil, or am I off base here? I don’t have a link, but I’ve run across online posters with pictures of characters who represent the various D&D alignments. One had Sepiroth as neutral evil. I’m not totally familiar with him. Would he fit the description you’ve given? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1333 "2009-05-22T21:37:38Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > I don’t have a link, but I’ve run across online posters with pictures of characters who represent the various D&D alignments. One had Sepiroth as neutral evil. I’m not totally familiar with him. Would he fit the description you’ve given? I have no idea who Sepiroth is. I only know the term as a descriptor for the “archetype worlds” of Kabbalah. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1334 "2009-05-22T21:47:10Z")
[I had to look him up to get the plotline.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepiroth) ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1335 "2009-05-22T21:58:04Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > [I had to look him up to get the plotline.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepiroth) Ah, OK. Judging from that thumbnail sketch, yeah, that appears to be reasonably like my conception of neutral evil. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1336 "2009-05-23T02:14:40Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Back to the discussion of alignment for a sec: > > Is neutral evil the “evillest of the evil” alignments? I’ve never been able to get my head 100% around the idea of neutral evil, but my closest idea of it is “sociopath”. I envision this alignment as someone who can function perfectly convincingly in a social environment, but then go home and plan and execute a brutal murder with absolute seamlessness. Are the really nasty, long-term serial killers (not spree killers. I see them as more chaotic evil) neutral evil, or am I off base here? I always regarded NE as not so much “more evil” as purer, less constrained evil. They are willing to follow the rules if it furthers their cause, unlike CE; but they will break those rules the moment they get in the way, unlike LE. Your description seems like a good one. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1337 "2009-05-23T05:23:28Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > Well, you know what I mean. [Not _alive_, exactly, but…well, still up and moving around](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html). True, … from a certain point of view… … ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Shine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr_shine/32/464_2.png) [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1338 "2009-05-23T09:39:46Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > Well, you know what I mean. [Not _alive_, exactly, but…well, still up and moving around](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html). Just curious, if O-Chul were to destroy the phylactery and then ‘kill’ Xykon, could pre-lich Xykon be resurrected (and therefore come out of this alive)? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1339 "2009-05-23T09:51:19Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > Just curious, if O-Chul were to destroy the phylactery and then ‘kill’ Xykon, could pre-lich Xykon be resurrected (and therefore come out of this alive)? Yes. You’d need a _Resurrection_ spell, not just a _Raise Dead_ spell, but you can bring formerly undead creatures back to life. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1340 "2009-05-23T10:03:23Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Yes. You’d need a _Resurrection_ spell, not just a _Raise Dead_ spell, but you can bring formerly undead creatures back to life. Wouldn’t even be that hard either, outside of Redcloak finding another holy symbol, he’s more than a high enough level to be within the time limit. The only problem was that Xykon wasn’t exactly doing well in the health department, so they’d need to relichify him FAST before he kicked it of old age. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=66) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=68)