# Order of the Stick General Discussion Thread (Open Spoilers and Speculation) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 2, 2009, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096 "2009-02-02T07:39:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 85
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1681 "2009-06-10T16:51:23Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > But has Redcloak ever seen the Snarl? Other than living next door to it for the past few months…probably not. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1682 "2009-06-10T16:53:07Z")
Chronos, it almost certainly is something from D&D, just not unique to it. Eg, a dragon, or something. (almost certainly not actually a dragon) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1683 "2009-06-10T16:55:51Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Other than living next door to it for the past few months…probably not. 😉 He’s living next door to the _rift_. The Snarl and the rift are two different things. And since the rift has opened, there’s been no sign of the Snarl. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1684 "2009-06-10T16:56:08Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Also the one-handed carry is traditionally used to haul Durkon along – and he’s a dwarf, in full plate. I don’t think that anyone but Roy has been shown carrying Durkon with one hand, and Roy is pretty strong. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1685 "2009-06-10T16:56:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > But has Redcloak ever seen the Snarl? I believe in “Start of Darkness” he sees the Snarl and recognizes it in captivity; he advises it that it could easily break away from its captors. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1686 "2009-06-10T17:13:29Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > I believe in “Start of Darkness” he sees the Snarl and recognizes it in captivity; he advises it that it could easily break away from its captors. No, that’s the MITD. He’s never seen the Snarl. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1687 "2009-06-10T17:20:23Z")
Oh. Right. Mistyped, there. Had Redcloak ever seen the Snarl by that point? It’s hard to say; the act of donning the Crimson Mantle evidently fed his brain with a great amount of information. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1688 "2009-06-10T19:16:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Sigh. No, he never said that it’s something in the D&D universe. He did say that it’s not something he made up, and that people would recognize it when they saw it. Furthermore, Rich is quite aware that many of his readers follow D&D only superficially, or not at all: It’s not something from an obscure rulebook, or a combination of obscure rulebooks, because if that were the case, most folks wouldn’t recognize it. If it’s something from D&D at all, it would probably be something from one of the core rulebooks, but folks have already been over those with a fine-toothed comb and found nothing that matched, even before this latest tour de force. Therefore, it is probably _not_ something from D&D, but from some other work of literature or art. Ooookay. Sorry to offend. The Snarl is still something Rich made up, so no, it’s not a baby Snarl. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1689 "2009-06-10T19:23:32Z")
Am I the only one who noted O-Chul’s closed eyes in panel ten? It might look like he’s suffering but I pretty much guarantee you that he’s praying. Even with the ‘glowy eyes’ thing from the MitD there’s a possibility that O-Chul was praying to the twelve Gods to rescue this most loyal servant and he got the natural 20 he needed to get some divine intervention. And, let’s be honest, if any mortal has earned some divine intervention…it’s O-Chul. The man is a walking pillar of faith. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1690 "2009-06-10T19:54:54Z")
I dunno – I was left vaguely unsatisfied by this comic. Too much of the \* deus ex machina \* if it _was_ the MITD that did it. But there aren’t too many other possibilities given the Cloister spell. Unless the Cloister spell chose just this moment to expire (it’s about due) and V’s old mentor was able to teleport them away. Or the three fiends decided to break a few rules. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1691 "2009-06-10T19:58:22Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > I dunno – I was left vaguely unsatisfied by this comic. Too much of the \* deus ex machina \* if it _was_ the MITD that did it. But there aren’t too many other possibilities given the Cloister spell. Unless the Cloister spell chose just this moment to expire (it’s about due) and V’s old mentor was able to teleport them away. Or the three fiends decided to break a few rules. If certain speculations turn out to be true, it’s more like _deus ex deum_. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1692 "2009-06-10T20:23:01Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > I dunno – I was left vaguely unsatisfied by this comic. Too much of the \* deus ex machina \* if it _was_ the MITD that did it. But there aren’t too many other possibilities given the Cloister spell. Unless the Cloister spell chose just this moment to expire (it’s about due) and V’s old mentor was able to teleport them away. Or the three fiends decided to break a few rules. I was vaguely unsatisfied too, mainly because I don’t really care much about the MitD (and even less about what it is, unlike apparently every other fan). I’d hoped for O-Chul & V to escape on their own – or better yet, being captured, 'cause I’m a sadist – but I don’t really think it’s _d-e-m_. Rich pretty much set up the MitD as a possible, even _likely_, savior back during the Go strip and especially the monster’s "_O-Chul!!!_ cri de coeur panel back when the paladin first escaped. Plus, we know the creature has powers/strength it doesn’t even understand, so the appearance of a new ability doesn’t really come outta nowhere. If a writer sets up something as unpredictable and unknowable, we the audience can expect the unpredictable and unknown arising from it. As you say, there weren’t too many possibilities, given Xykon’s rush to get back there and destroy them, so there just wasn’t time for them to escape on their own. The IFCC has already stated they can’t interfere. And using V’s old mentor (who’s only been seen in a few rare panels) and having the Cloister _just happen_ to expire at the instant they needed it would seem way more of _deus_y to me. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1693 "2009-06-10T20:38:08Z")
It is not deus ex machina if the MitD saved them; that would be a _direct result_ of O-Chul’s prior actions. That is not some outside force resolving the plot; that _is_ the plot. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1694 "2009-06-10T20:41:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Chronos, it almost certainly is something from D&D, just not unique to it. Eg, a dragon, or something. (almost certainly not actually a dragon) Ah, true, I suppose: There are some classic mythological creatures that only show up in D&D in obscure books. The phoenix, for instance, has for reasons unknown to me _never_ shown up in a core D&D book, in any edition, but always seems to get added in later. Not that Monster-San is a phoenix, either, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1695 "2009-06-10T20:48:47Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Chronos, it almost certainly is something from D&D, just not unique to it. Eg, a dragon, or something. (almost certainly not actually a dragon) It’s a dragon turtle! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1696 "2009-06-10T21:11:27Z")
I’m new to the strip, but has anyone opined that the CitD might be . . . the DM? Certainly technically a part of the D&D universe and capable of amazing powers. And, an ever-present presence though not ever seen inside the game. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1697 "2009-06-10T21:40:21Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > He’s living next door to the _rift_. The Snarl and the rift are two different things. And since the rift has opened, there’s been no sign of the Snarl. Spoilers for Start of Darkness… He has his own crayon drawings of it so I think it’s safe to say that Redcloak knows what it looks like through his connection to the Dark One. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1698 "2009-06-10T21:41:58Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > But there aren’t too many other possibilities given the Cloister spell. Unless the Cloister spell chose just this moment to expire (it’s about due) and V’s old mentor was able to teleport them away. Remember the specific exception for summoning spells. [532 The Exposition Fairy - Giant in the Playground Games](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1699 "2009-06-11T01:26:23Z")
Okay, I’m not waiting any longer. I ordered _Start of Darkness_. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096/1700 "2009-06-11T07:27:53Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > Note that the linked page mentions that abominations are immune to charms and other mind-affecting spells. Since Xykon has charmed the CitD (in Start of Darkness), that rules out the theory that he’s an abomination. Never read Start of Darkness, but is it for sure he actually charmed it? He’s pretty naive, did his behavior and action actually change on Charm or is it possible the charm wasn’t that important, and he just did what his new ‘friend’ wanted? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=84) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-general-discussion-thread-open-spoilers-and-speculation/484096.md?page=86)