# Ordering a well-done steak: Unsophisticated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 23, 2005, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522 "2005-10-23T14:48:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![chaoticbear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@chaoticbear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chaoticbear)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/181 "2005-10-24T19:33:21Z")
Well, I’ve only read the first two pages of this so far, but here’s my opinion: I’m a rare-medium rare kind of guy, and this is after being brought up in a well-done kind of household. My mom still shudders if she’s around me when I order steak. However, to the person who mentioned tomatoes: I love tomatoes cold. I like peaches and plums and pears and melons and all sorts of things cold. (Not apples.) Does that make me a bad person? (For the record, I like my fat cocks uncooked.) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/182 "2005-10-24T19:36:35Z")
Tastes REALLY can differ, you know. Over in IMHO they recently had a thread about people who like their popcorn half-burned. I’m not kidding, some people like that … I’m one of them. I don’t know if we have a carbon deficit or what, but we likes us some burned popcorn. Same with steaks. Some people may well like their steaks charred. I pesonally like them medium, so I order them medium well (cause that’s what you get when you order medium well in a restaurant, most of the time … medium.) But I have NO trouble envisioning that there might be people who like well done steaks simply because they literally taste better to them … and I think describing such tastes as unsophisticated is itself unsophisticated. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/183 "2005-10-24T19:44:58Z")
When you buy a steak, you are buying a finished product, not a process. Either you like your steak or you don’t. If you don’t- complain. If you do- enjoy it. Stop blathering about some intangible “rights.” As for snobbery, the only sin in food is refusing to try new things. I’m a “food snob”, but most of my wine comes out of a box. However, when in a restraunt, I’ll always seek to order a new dish. It’s a far greater sin to go to an ethnic restraunt where steak is traditionally served well-done and insist on a rare steak than it is to order a well-done steak at a regular steakhouse. One is a preference and one is an insult. And yes, you can insult a chef. Some places, like Denny’s, are places for you to go get someone to cook your food when you’re too lazy to. Other places, like Chez Panisse, are places for you to go when you want to experience and artist’s work and it’d be totally inappropriate to demand something other than what the chef wants to serve. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/184 "2005-10-24T19:51:58Z")
> [@August West](#): > > I was trying to search to see if I could come up with any papers that related to my anecdote and I found a tangentially related one here [http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/full/82/6/1863](http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/full/82/6/1863) > > Here’s the end report > So, ironically, according to this study the best cuts of meat should be saved for those who are ordering their steaks well-done as they need the extra tenderness. From your link: > [@](#): > > Unfortunately, consumers consistently cook top sirloin steaks well done or to higher degrees of doneness (Savell et al., 1999); therefore, consumers should choose sirloin steaks with higher quality classifications to ensure greater tenderness when cooking to a higher degree of doneness. Results of the present study suggest that higher quality classifications (higher i.m. fat) provide some protection against toughening due to increased cooking temperature. So the study doesn’t say that more cooking = more tenderness. _All_ cuts are toughened by cooking (and the study claims that endpoint temperature was the single most significant factor in tenderness and flavor) higher quality cuts are less affected by overcooking than mid quality cuts. It;s saying if you _must_ cook your steak well done, a quality cut will stay more tender than a mid level cut but there is still no question that steaks of _any_ quality lose tenderness and flavor the more they are cooked. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/185 "2005-10-24T20:32:05Z")
> [@August West](#): > > I was trying to search to see if I could come up with any papers that related to my anecdote and I found a tangentially related one here [http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/full/82/6/1863](http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/full/82/6/1863) > > Here’s the end report > So, ironically, according to this study the best cuts of meat should be saved for those who are ordering their steaks well-done as they need the extra tenderness. The report is a little missleading in its end comments > [@The Report](#): > > Table 3. Quality classification x endpoint temperature interaction means (n = 54) for Warner-Bratzler shear force (WBSF) of gluteus medius steaks (SEM = 0.07) > > ```auto > > Quality classification 65.5°C 71.0°C 76.6°C > SEL 3.29 4.12 4.31 > CHO 3.25 3.69 3.96 > CAB 3.14 3.56 3.90 > > ``` In all cases the beef was more tender the lower the internal temperature. The end quote was trying to say that if you are going to cook a steak well done (76.6) tehn Choice beef is much more tender than Select . Whilst at Medium rare temperature the difference in shear force between choice and select beef is much lower. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/186 "2005-10-24T21:01:36Z")
> [@August West](#): > > Well, it will never be seen on page 4, but I had to post this anyway. Surprise! 🙂 > [@](#): > > One of my best friends was a student at Kansas State and in an animal husbandry course the entire class was taken to a room lit with red lights so that all of the beef looked identical. The identical cuts of meat were cooked to all of the different levels of doneness. Every single person in the class chose ‘Rare’ as the most flavorful and best quality, and according to the professor no one had ever selected anything above medium-rare. Well yeah, blood is quite flavorful. If someone likes the flavor of blood, more power to him. I don’t. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/187 "2005-10-24T21:25:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > A tangent, but related - > > My father told me about a blind taste test (of wine, but it speaks to the notion that taste can be objectively analysed) where the lights were such that the color of the wine could not be distinguished. > > The wine critics participating did no better than random in distinguishing red wine from white. :eek: On the wine tangent, the question of whether such testing was ever seriously done in the first place was discussed in some detail in [this article](http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?020819fa_fact) by Calvin Trillin in the New Yorker back in 2002. As usually told, the story appears to be an urban myth. ---
**Author:** ![KAndre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@KAndre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KAndre)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/188 "2005-10-24T21:41:35Z")
What an…interesting thread. Oddly enough, I wasn’t introduced to steak until adulthood (not served at home because it was too expensive), orderwas told to order medium rare becuase that was best - and was convinced that steak was just nasty. Especially the mouth feel. Not to mention the juice, which in the nice dim lightning of the steakhouse looked just like blood. I got to the point that the only thing in a steakhouse I would order would be the lobster. I finally tasted a friend’s well done steak at an Argentinean place. It was like a completely different food; and the chef came out to make sure we liked it. I was so sad that it closed (it seems to be an given in Houston - good restaurants closing constantly). I then was taken to Chamberlain’s in Dallas, asked for a steak very well done, had to send it back again to be cooked more (and it did take some time), the owner came out with it and again it was beyond good. (And they has a nice flight of wine.) I don’t add salt, pepper, ketchup, A-1 or anything else. The steaks seem to me to be tender, flavorful and good. Whatever delicate flavor a medium rare steak contains, apparently I can’t appreciate. And I admit, I only order steaks at what I consider to be good steakhouses (Capital Grille, Flemings, Pappas). Otherwise, steaks are nasty. Both at people’s homes or in regular old restaurants. I don’t even try to taste rare or medium rare steak anymore. I also hate prime rib. Love some barbeque pork ribs, cooked so long they are falling off the bone. But prime rib is also nasty. I like some sushi. I like some deep fried catfish. I like some filets broiled in a delicate lemon sauce. I like Alton Brown’s show but cooking the way he suggests I haven’t found to be particularly tasty. But that’s just me. I don’t think of myself as particularly unsophisticated (not particularly sophisticated) - the way the term was used in the OP seemed sort of…stuck up, like someone who insists on having their martini shaken and not stirred. I can’t tell the difference, but if you can, cool. Gimme a white russian while you’re up. It tastes good. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/189 "2005-10-24T21:53:26Z")
> [@KAndre](#): > > . . . the way the term was used in the OP seemed sort of…stuck up, like someone who insists on having their martini shaken and not stirred. I can’t tell the difference, but if you can, cool. Gimme a white russian while you’re up. It tastes good. Have you ever compared a stirred martini with a shaken martini? Again with the projection of self-doubt onto another person and calling it “stuck up.” This phenomenon fascinates me: most accusations of snobbery, I’ve decided, have almost nothing whatsoever to do with the accused, and are almost always about issues of envy and self-doubt on the part of the accuser. Why is this so hard to say: “I’ve never compared a shaken martini with a stirred one. Anyone know if there’s a difference, or is that just fasionable way to order them?” Revealing your martini “ignorance” is not the same thing as finding yourself at school in your underwear; no one is going to point and laugh. On the other hand, “sort of…stuck up, like someone who insists on having their martini shaken and not stirred”–is FAR more likely to get me, speaking at any rate, pointing and laughing. Why all this bluffing bravado? Why so hard to say you don’t know? (For the record, the difference between a shaken martinit and a stirred one is not simply a matter of image. When you shake a martini, vigorously, the ice cubes crash against each other and tiny little flakes of ice are shed into the drink. If you drink such a martini immediately after its poured, the tiny swirling ice crystals are like a little mouthful of blizzard that adds a GREAT deal to the experience. A stirred martini is a mixed drink; a shaken martini is a lovely sensation in your mouth and mind.) ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/190 "2005-10-24T21:58:15Z")
Sheesh. Must perview. > [@lissener](#): > > . . . or is that just \*\*_a_ \*\*fasionable way to order them?" > > . . . speaking \*\*for myself \*\*at any rate . . . ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/191 "2005-10-24T22:13:53Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Revealing your martini “ignorance” is not the same thing as finding yourself at school in your underwear; no one is going to point and laugh. _Points and laughs_ Sorry, but it had to be done. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/192 "2005-10-24T22:13:54Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > A stirred martini is a mixed drink; a shaken martini is a lovely sensation in your mouth and mind.) But shaking bruises the gin! 😉 (I kid. The sentiment exists out there, but it’s B.S. for all that I can tell.) ---
**Author:** ![KAndre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@KAndre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KAndre)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/193 "2005-10-24T22:33:07Z")
Yes, I have tried a shaken vs. a stirred martini, presented to me by some who _insisted_ the difference had to be clearly obvious to everyone. It wasn’t to me and a couple of other people at the party. I have no idea if it was that we were regular martini drinkers or what, I could discern no difference. They were both cold. I don’t like martinis. The person who was insisting on the difference was stuck up in my opinion. It wouldn’t be hard at all to say, “I’ve never compared a shaken martini with a stirred one. Anyone know if there’s a difference, or is that just fasionable way to order them?” It wouldn’t be true, but I could say it. The OP asked for confirmation of what I inferred was a faintly negative descriptor of a type of behavior. I disagreed. I don’t see any “bluffing bravado” on my part - I personally don’t think the doneness(?) of steak (or for that matter, the mixing of a martini) is a particularly good predictor of sophistication. Now, if someone manages to hold off all gaseous emissions until they are alone or with a tolerant SO - now that strikes me as a much more useful as a criteria. ---
**Author:** ![KAndre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@KAndre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KAndre)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/194 "2005-10-24T22:35:05Z")
Yes, I have tried a shaken vs. a stirred martini, presented to me by some who _insisted_ the difference had to be clearly obvious to everyone. It wasn’t to me and a couple of other people at the party. I have no idea if it was that we were not regular martini drinkers or what, I could discern no difference. They were both cold. I don’t like martinis. The person who was insisting on the difference was stuck up in my opinion. It wouldn’t be hard at all to say, “I’ve never compared a shaken martini with a stirred one. Anyone know if there’s a difference, or is that just fasionable way to order them?” It wouldn’t be true, but I could say it. The OP asked for confirmation of what I inferred was a faintly negative descriptor of a type of behavior. I disagreed. I don’t see any “bluffing bravado” on my part - I personally don’t think the doneness(?) of steak (or for that matter, the mixing of a martini) is a particularly good predictor of sophistication. Now, if someone manages to hold off all gaseous emissions until they are alone or with a tolerant SO - now that strikes me as a much more useful as a criteria. Drat. I think this posted twice. Well, I _really, really_ meant it. ---
**Author:** ![KAndre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@KAndre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KAndre)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/195 "2005-10-24T22:44:33Z")
We were not regular martini drinkers. Not. Not not not. ---
**Author:** ![Try\_As\_I\_Might](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Try\_As\_I\_Might](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try_As_I_Might)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/196 "2005-10-24T23:07:04Z")
I’d like to have someone buy me martinis to determine if I can tell the difference between a shaken one and a stirred one. . . Slurp… Hmmm. Bold and refreshing, is this the shaken one? No? Oh, well, let’s see… Slurp… Clearly distinguished, a gentleman’s drink, this must be the stirred martini. No!? OK, this is pretty tough. Let’s try again… Slurp… Thatz DElicious. (slurp again) Thaz gotta be the shaken one. No!? oh… Slurp… Slurp… Kay, thatzz-even bedder, stirrrrred? Oh, (Slams the rest) well… I can’t dell the tifference. can I get anodder? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/197 "2005-10-24T23:43:22Z")
> [@KAndre](#): > > Yes, I have tried a shaken vs. a stirred martini, presented to me by some who . . . . . . obviously didn’t know how to make a martini. I have a martini shaker at home, and I can tell you from personal experience that it takes a great deal of practice to perfect the technique: the liquor has to be the right temperature; the ice has to be right size; the proportions have to be right; the shaking has to be vigorous enough; the receiving glass has to be chilled; and the drinking has to happen immediately. I’m sorry you haven’t had all those stars line up for you yet, but it’s sheer hubris to assume from that that no one else has either, and anyone who says so is bullshitting you. There are a couple bars here in Seattle where, when I get a martini, I can see the little shards of ice glittering in the drink. A sip of such a drink is like a thousand points of cold in your mouth, and is nothing at all like a sip of a martini that’s merely been strained through ice. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/198 "2005-10-25T01:02:03Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > A stirred martini is a mixed drink; a shaken martini is a lovely sensation in your mouth and mind.) He likes rare beef, **The Passion of Joan of Arc** , _and_ shaken-rather-than-stirred martinis? That does it. **lissener** , _you_ are gonna be the next Missus Ukulele. PS: This may be the most entertaining 4-page plus thread I’ve read in six years. – Uke, medium-rare rib-in, please, hold th’ ketchup. ---
**Author:** ![KAndre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@KAndre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KAndre)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/199 "2005-10-25T01:12:37Z")
I don’t think I claimed \*no one \* could discern a difference - I said I couldn’t and a couple of my friends couldn’t and therefore the phrase “everyone does” was wrong. Maybe I’m one of those “supertasters” or “nontasters” - for me, there is no such thing as “sweet” grapefruit. It’s bitter and nasty. Many, many things are bitter and nasty, and not in that good acquired taste way of broccoli. As I said, they both tasted the same to me - the taste of alcohol overwhelmed everything else. It was awhile ago, and perhaps our taste testing was more like **Try As I Might’s** … ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/200 "2005-10-25T04:43:49Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > Reading this made me thing of the movie **Big Night** with Stanley Tucci and Tony Shaloub. Shaloub was _Primo_, the chef. Food was a canvas to him. Tucci was _Secondo_, the younger brother who wanted to make his mark in America. He was more pragmatic about the business. Primo’s cooking was his art. Just as one wouldn’t tell Da Vinci or Monet how to paint, one shouldn’t tell Primo how to cook. Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, but don’t ask the artist to mar his canvas simply because you have a different vision of beauty than the artist. > > Of course, the question then becomes which chefs are artists, and which are simply glorified, pompous hacks producing reproductions for the masses? Yeah, but unlike a painting, however you cook something, it’s still gonna end up the same way: as shit. If the “artist” doesn’t want to mar his “canvas”, then he should only paint for himself, not for other people. Sometimes you have to compromise, for the sake of practicality. I like my steak medium rare to medium. Nice and juicy. Someone else likes their steak burnt to a crisp. Oh well, their tastebuds, their decision. Both steaks will end up in the toilet, either way. My family thinks I’m weird because I like my bacon half raw, and they, like most people, like it crispy. I like it nice and tender. (I’ve found that turkey bacon is best in this case-it’s easier to cook) Life is too damned short to worry about being “sophistocated.” Eat what you like. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522.md?page=11)