# Ordering a well-done steak: Unsophisticated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 23, 2005, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522 "2005-10-23T14:48:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_F](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/43a26b/32.png) [@John\_F](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_F)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/61 "2005-10-23T22:34:01Z")
if I pay the same for a steak well-done as the person who wants it bovine-body-temperature, I expect the same cut of meat as the person who wants it rare. To give me an inferior cut of meat because of some overblown sense of sophistication when I’m paying the same is fraud. . I agree. I think the chefs are choosing from \*within \*the same category the best of those cuts and using them in preps where it might matter and using the other cuts in preps where it won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/62 "2005-10-23T22:36:45Z")
You people keep saying over and over again that “you can’t tell the difference between a good cut of meat and a lousy cut of meat of it’s well-done,” and I say, “_wrong_.” I mean, prove it. What kind of tests have you done, besides just being pompous food snobs? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/63 "2005-10-23T22:44:22Z")
> [@John F](#): > > I think the chefs are choosing from \*within \*the same category the best of those cuts and using them in preps where it might matter and using the other cuts in preps where it won’t. These are probably the same chefs who make a big production about preparing a dish that consists of a baby hamster-sized chunk of meat sitting on a 6" plate and covered in some sort of pastel sauce dribbled in a random pattern and topped off with a sprig of parsley. For the privelege of ordering and eating this “masterpiece”, you get to fork over $75. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/64 "2005-10-23T22:47:15Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > You people keep saying over and over again that “you can’t tell the difference between a good cut of meat and a lousy cut of meat of it’s well-done,” and I say, “_wrong_.” I mean, prove it. What kind of tests have you done, besides just being pompous food snobs? Hear, hear! A well done steak, properly cooked, is as tender as a more rare steak. There ain’t a drop o’ blood in beef stew, but if it’s cooked right, the meat will fall apart when the fork touches it. I’m not sure that some chefs know how to cook a steak well done. They seem to think that frying it a bit longer than they would a medium rare steak is the way to do it. But the fact is that the temperature needs to be lower. The steak needs to cook slower, not just longer. A rare steak would be pretty tough if it were thrown in a microwave and nuked for a few minutes in order to put it out faster. Or maybe the chefs do know that, and they just don’t want to bother. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/65 "2005-10-23T22:49:23Z")
I look at it the same way I look at, say, poetry. Some people like their poems to rhyme, and to “make sense” on the first cursory scan. Others, they’re willing to work a little harder to discover more subtle rewards that found in more “difficult” poetry. Just because there is a spectrum of subtlety and effort doesn’t make one style “better” than another, although the term “sophisticated”–if used objectively, stripped of all implications of value judgment, is not entirely useless in the examination of such different approaches. A well-done steak–it’s is a WELL DONE well done steak–is not without its simple pleasures. It’s my experience, though, that some of the more subtle flavors and textures of a rare-to-medium steak are sacrificed on the way to becoming well done. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/66 "2005-10-23T22:49:36Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > You people keep saying over and over again that “you can’t tell the difference between a good cut of meat and a lousy cut of meat of it’s well-done,” and I say, “_wrong_.” I mean, prove it. What kind of tests have you done, besides just being pompous food snobs? It’s not like chefs at these restaurants are serving grade Z meat to the well-done people and the grade-A to the medium-rare people. But, as **JohnF** said, within the same grade of meat there are cuts that are better suited to being cooked well-done than others. If there’s a little bit of imperfection in the meat, it’s not obvious when prepared to well-doneness, but more obvious the less its cooked. I mean, do you cook, **Eve**? Don’t you prepare the same cuts of meat different ways depending on how marbled the meat is, for example? It’s not snobbish food assholery, but if it makes you feel better to think it is, so be it. It’s a matter of economics and making the best use of the meat you have available. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/67 "2005-10-23T22:53:54Z")
And as far as using lesser cuts of meat for steak ordered well done, I don’t see the problem. What you lose in the overcooking are the subtle differences that would probably be indistinguishable in a well done steak. It’s like if I have fresh-today fish, I’ll cook it less well done–closer to sushi–and serve it more simply, to let its own flavors through. If it’s a day old, I’d consider cooking it longer and using a stronger accompaniment. If I buy salmon but don’t end up using it the first day, I’ll make a salad out of it, or croquets, the next day. What’s the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/68 "2005-10-23T22:58:19Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Hear, hear! A well done steak, properly cooked, is as tender as a more rare steak. There ain’t a drop o’ blood in beef stew, but if it’s cooked right, the meat will fall apart when the fork touches it. I’m not sure that some chefs know how to cook a steak well done. They seem to think that frying it a bit longer than they would a medium rare steak is the way to do it. But the fact is that the temperature needs to be lower. The steak needs to cook slower, not just longer. A rare steak would be pretty tough if it were thrown in a microwave and nuked for a few minutes in order to put it out faster. Or maybe the chefs do know that, and they just don’t want to bother. Slow is the key word and the problem here. If you’re eating out at a resturant, those cooks are trying to get the food out as fast as possible so it will come out with the rest of your tables order and so they can move on to the next table. Not many people like to wait more than X amount of time for their food and not many cooks want to try to juggle your low and slow meat with the rest of the food they have to cook. Speaking as someone who has worked a fair amount of time in food service, it’s just not practical to cook it that way. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/69 "2005-10-23T22:58:25Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > What’s the difference? I think the whole argument here is about the alleged arrogance of the chef who believes that no steak should be prepared well-done, but if a customer wants that, the customer doesn’t deserve higher quality meat. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/70 "2005-10-23T22:58:36Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Hear, hear! A well done steak, properly cooked, is as tender as a more rare steak. There ain’t a drop o’ blood in beef stew, but if it’s cooked right, the meat will fall apart when the fork touches it. Well, yeah. But beef stew meat is a lot different that steak beef. Basically, if I may simplify, there are two types of meat: Beef that cooks well with quick, dry, high-temperature cooking, and beef that requires long, slow, wet cooking. Cuts of beef like brisket, chuck, shank–all the muscular parts of the cow with lots of collagen, respond best to slow, long cooking, over low heat. This allows the collagen to break down, and the meat softens. Cooking this sort of meat as a steak will result in a dismal, inedible failure. Steak cuts of beef–from less muscular parts of a cow’s body–are much more tender and require quick cooking over high heat. These cuts, unlike stewing cuts, get tougher the longer they’re cooked. You try making a stew from a T-bone. It ain’t going to work. There is a fundamental difference in the structure of different cuts of meat that make certain cuts more tender than others in different types of preparation. If you think you can cook, say, a Porterhouse to be just as tender well-done as medium-rare, without the use of a marinade, then I challenge you to do so. If you try cooking a steak cut over low heat, it doesn’t have that collagen necessary to make that nice, tender meat you like. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/71 "2005-10-23T23:02:18Z")
And can I just inject a pissy, MINOR hijack here, before this gets any farther? There’s no “N” in _restaurateur_. Here’s how you remember that: the root word in “restaurant” is not “restaurant.” There’s no “N” in the root word, which is _restaurer_, French for “to restore.” \*Restaurant \*is French for “restoring,” so the “N” is only in the suffix. _Restaurateur_ takes the same root word but adds a different suffix, to describe a person who restores: _restaurateur_. In other words, \*restaurateur \*is French, not for “eatery owner,” but for “restorer.” See? No “N.” That is all. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/72 "2005-10-23T23:05:34Z")
> [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > I think the whole argument here is about the alleged arrogance of the chef who believes that no steak should be prepared well-done, but if a customer wants that, the customer doesn’t deserve higher quality meat. The key word is “alleged.” It’s paranoid to ascribe snobbery to the chef for simply using his materials appropriately. If I have a whole, unblemished tomato and a tomato that’s already had a couple of chunks chopped out of it, and I get two orders: one for avocado salad in a tomato shell, and one for gazpacho, which tomato am I going to use for which order? Where’s the snobbery? ---
**Author:** ![John\_F](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/43a26b/32.png) [@John\_F](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_F)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/73 "2005-10-23T23:23:31Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > The key word is “alleged.” It’s paranoid to ascribe snobbery to the chef for simply using his materials appropriately. Exactly! ---
**Author:** ![John\_F](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/43a26b/32.png) [@John\_F](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_F)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/74 "2005-10-23T23:28:57Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > But the fact is that the temperature needs to be lower. The steak needs to cook slower, not just longer. This in fact, is not a fact. The best guy I know about to tell us what is scientifically going on in foods as they are cooked as well as giving historical perspective is a guy named Alton Brown. I’ll go look around and see if he has anything posted on the net that may be of help to this thread, ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/75 "2005-10-23T23:35:20Z")
> [@Max the Immortal](#): > > Once again, the SDMB serves its purpose: I have gained an understanding of the timeless steak debate (which undoubtedly has raged since our ancestors first harnessed fire). I have finally learned why well-done steaks are frowned upon, and I agree that insisting upon a well-done steak is not consistent with the ritual we call dining. However, the practice of “keeping for well-done” is, in my opinion, unprofessional of a chef. A professional chef has the duty to provide his patrons with the best food he can; if he can’t prepare a delicious and tender cut of beef\* that is cooked through, he’d better learn how. Yes, a restaurant is a business, and using good meat for well-done orders may seem wasteful, but that isn’t the point. Do you want to run a decent restaurant that turns a great profit, or a great restaurant that turns a decent profit? Thank you, well said. Unlike most everyone else here offering opinions (some very correct I point out) I was a chef in a several upscale steakhouses, in San Diego, Burbank and Beverly Hills among other cities. I would proudly serve our finest cut of meat seared with a blowtorch if that was how the customer preffered it. I have never, ever heard of any of my fellow chefs holding 2nd tier cuts just to fob it off on an “unsophisticated” pallete. What utter drivel. A restaraunt myth in my opinion. My opinion of celebrity chefs who say otherwise is that they are just blowing smoke and trying to stay in charactor as a celebrity chef. The more outrageous you are, the more people talk about what you say. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/76 "2005-10-24T00:03:26Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Well, I have finally found two reasons to become a vegetarian: > > 1. Pretentious asshole chefs will give me a piece-of-crap cut of meat because I happen to prefer it well done; and, > > 2. Pretentious asshole food snobs will accuse me of being a knuckle-dragging moron because our tastes in food differ slightly. > > _Jebus_, I never cease to marvel that _nothing_ is too unimportant that some of you can’t manage to get on your high horses and fling insults about! ( **Guin** , you and I can go out and eat, and pointedly not comment on each other’s choices) Sounds good to me-you’re paying, though. ---
**Author:** ![Squee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba9def/32.png) [@Squee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squee)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/77 "2005-10-24T00:14:45Z")
Sorry for futher hijack… well in the spirit of meat anyway, **BMalion** , after reading your post then looking at your username, all I could think about was **beef medallions** for some reason. I think I should go get something to eat. = ) ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/78 "2005-10-24T00:19:19Z")
Well, on the one hand, there’s the old Latin quote “De gustibus est non disputandem”, or loosely translated, there’s no arguing with taste. On the other hand, I believe it was Heinlein who felt that the above quote was nonsense, as to him, taste was one of the few things _worth_ arguing about. I like my steaks medium rare. I don’t like them well done. I don’t really care how anyone else likes theirs. ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/79 "2005-10-24T00:25:14Z")
In _Kitchen Confidential_, Bourdain talks about deep frying steaks ordered well-done. :eek: While I respect **BMalion** , much of Bourdain’s book is pointedly not working in the best restaurants and steakhouses, it is about working in the middle-of-the-road places and tourist traps. In these kind of places, where the focus is the bottom line and turnover versus gourmet cooking, I have no doubt that the worst cuts were saved for well-done. If you haven’t read the book, it is Bourdain’s story, about a promising beginning, squandered in drugs and alcohol, finally wresting control back of his life, and getting started again where he finally ended up as a celebrity chef (mostly as a result of the book). Me, I like my steaks medium rare. My wife yells at me, she is a medium/medium-well person. In the end, I’ll eat nearly anything, I ain’t a foodie. But I was once treated to a $37 New York Strip at Morton’s Steakhouse, cooked medium rare, and that was about the best thing I have ever put in my mouth. IMHO there is a reason why people pay that much for what amounts to a ungarnished slab of meat, and that reason is that a lot of people more skilled and more culinarily versed than me have put a lot of time into the perfection of preparation and consumption of steak, and that’s how they say it is the best. Not being a foodie, I’ll follow their recommendations. I’m certainly not going to scoff at anyone (except my wife, and she started it) because in the end it is personal preference, but to say there is no qualitative difference is bucking the opinions of a lot of very particular chefs and gourmands. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522/80 "2005-10-24T00:30:13Z")
> [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > If I order and pay for your best cut and you give me anything less, that’s what you’ve done, regardless of how it’s prepared. > > It’s totally unacceptable. That’s fine. It’s your money. You can drag your prime rib through gravel if you want to. My point is only that you’re wasting your money because a $20 steak becomes exactly the same as a $2 steak once it’s overcooked. If you prefer well done steak then you might as well save yourself some money and order a cheaper cut. Why pay extra for qualities which you intend to have the cook destroy in the kitchen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ordering-a-well-done-steak-unsophisticated/327522.md?page=5)