# Orders, Captain? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 23, 2006, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orders-captain/361827 "2006-06-23T04:47:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orders-captain/361827/21 "2006-06-23T16:14:50Z")
> [@](#): > > CookingWithGas: I believe the Federation was a civilian agency, not a military one. The Enterprise’s mission had nothing to do with warfare. It was outfitted with weapons for self-defense, but it was not a battleship. If you think about it, you’ll realize this statement, especially the first part, is not correct. There are at least two episodes in the original series, _The Menagerie_ and _Court Martial_, where the Captain faces court martial. So, sure, the Federation is civilian. Starfleet, on the other hand, is military. In my defense, I had to look up the episode titles. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orders-captain/361827/22 "2006-06-23T16:27:14Z")
> [@Stupid\_Owl](#): > > The only type of ‘civilian’ government agency I can think of which has ranked officers and whose standard equipment includes weapons is a police force. The Merchant Marine is civilian in peacetime. Do their ships carry weapons? ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orders-captain/361827/23 "2006-06-23T18:42:04Z")
> [@633squadron](#): > > Yipe! This may be true for the shuttle era, but definitely _not_ true for the entire history of NASA. > > To prevent us all from being keel-hauled, I will point out that until the Apollo program, astronauts were almost exclusively _military_. That doesn’t equate to USAF, of course; it also includes Navy and Marine **aviators** (don’t call them pilots). > > With one exception, civilian astronauts came in late in the Apollo program, after several scientists bitched like hell. The only one of these scientist-astronauts to “fly” was Harrison Schmidt, a geologist who went to the Moon as the LEM pilot on Apollo 17, the last mission. Others had been scheduled, but NASA shut down the program after 17. > > The exception was, ironically, Neil Armstrong. He was ex-Navy (according to my memory) but had left to become a civilian test pilot for the NACA, the predecessor to NASA. He was arguably the best test pilot among the NASA bunch, though they were all good; he was a great pilot and great aeronautical engineer and nerves of steel. > > The Original 7 had 3 USAF pilots (Grissom, Cooper, and Slayton), 3 Navy aviators (Shepard, Carpenter, and Schirra) and one Marine (Glenn). This balance is pretty well reflected in succeeding groups. > > As far as I can tell, multi-man missions through Apollo were either all AF or all Navy except for 11; Armstrong was a civilian ex-Navy while Aldrin and Collins were USAF. Wow, that is some great information. Yes, my information was purely about shuttle missions. I do not believe that the positions of Mission Commander, Pilot, and Mission Specialist (definitely not Mission Specialist) had been developed until then. ---
**Author:** ![Stupid\_Owl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Stupid\_Owl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stupid_Owl)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orders-captain/361827/24 "2006-06-23T20:58:15Z")
Total fluke here, I was looking up information about my local Salvation Army Thrift Store so I could go unload some junk of mine on them, and I stumbled upon this: > [@](#): > > **Russian Court Says Salvation Army A Paramilitary Group** > > ``` > A Moscow court has ruled that the Salvation Army is a "paramilitary organization," and the Army said that it will fight attempts to expel it from the country. The Eastern European Commander of the Salvation Army told the BBC that his organization is being targeted because it "would not go down the road of paying bribes." Authorities say the reason for the ruling is that the Salvation Army is not properly registered, and they question its use of uniforms and rank. The crackdown comes under a 1997 law that bans religious groups for trying to convert followers to faiths considered new to Russia. A Moscow spokesman for the Army said its work is being hampered and members intimidated by police taking names at services. (Nick Wells, Bloomberg, 12/21/01, Internet) > > ``` Did you know these people have actual _Generals_? ---
**Author:** ![Stupid\_Owl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Stupid\_Owl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stupid_Owl)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orders-captain/361827/25 "2006-06-23T21:11:12Z")
> [@Jurph](#): > > They were under the Dep’t of Transportation until they were absorbed into the Dep’t of Homeland Security after 9-11. The Coast Guard are one of the seven “uniformed services” of the United States. The Coast Guard rank of Captain is equivalent with all of the DoD O-6 grades, but is also equivalent to a Captain in the NOAA Corps (Dept Commerce) or the Public Health Service (Dept of Health and Human Services - plus they get a Surgeon General!). They are apparently considered one of the five “armed forces”, but they don’t report through the Department of Defense, and their mission is more like the US Border Patrol (DHS, formerly DoJ), who are considered Federal Police. So you can use the word “military” if you want, but “armed service” or “armed forces” is probably as aggressive a wording as you can get away with before a DoD employee gives you the :rolleyes: . > > I would consider the Star Trek crew to be more like the NOAA Corps, the Navy, NASA, and the State Department all rolled into one. This is great stuff! Sadly I don’t know what all of it means… What kind of rank is a ‘Department of Defence O-6 grade’? What is the NOAA Corps? I am embarrased to admit I cannot think of a ‘Department of J’. I hadn’t thought about the ‘Generals’ in Surgeon General and Attorney General before; does this mean They’re supposed to be leading someone? I thought the Attorney General was just the Presidential Cabinet’s On-Staff Legal Counsel? Do M.D.'s in any way whatsoever answer to the Surgeon General? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orders-captain/361827/26 "2006-06-23T21:50:15Z")
> [@Stupid\_Owl](#): > > This is great stuff! Sadly I don’t know what all of it means… > > What kind of rank is a ‘Department of Defence O-6 grade’? What is the NOAA Corps? I am embarrased to admit I cannot think of a ‘Department of J’. > > I hadn’t thought about the ‘Generals’ in Surgeon General and Attorney General before; does this mean They’re supposed to be leading someone? I thought the Attorney General was just the Presidential Cabinet’s On-Staff Legal Counsel? Do M.D.'s in any way whatsoever answer to the Surgeon General? If my count is right O-6 is equivalent to Army/Marine/AF Colonel, Navy Captain. The enlisted and officer grades and either specialty equivalents are tagged with E-1 through E-9 and O-1 through O-10 (I’m not sure what the top number is in either system, actually). Thus you know that a given rank title is equivalent in rank to the same number in the other services and in the specialist classifications. (Quick, what’s a Corpsman 2nd class, and is he higher or lower in rank than a Staff Sergeant?) National Oceanic and Atmospheric Admin. Corps – “weathermen in uniform” so to speak. The General in Surgeon General and Attorney General is an **adjective** – he’s the ranking surgeon or the ranking attorney of the government’s staff of surgeons and attorneys, the one with **general** authority over the entire field of practice. (Interestingly, “General” as a title for top brass military has a similar derivation; they’re “general officers” as opposed to those who serve under them, with specific duties as assigned by the general in charge.) ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orders-captain/361827/27 "2006-06-23T21:51:30Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Don’t most NASA astronauts come from the USAF? Nope. Some come from [Concord,](http://abbeynews.com/wp/Christa_McAuliffe_s.jpg) [New](http://www.obcgs.com/firstwomen/christa.JPG) [Hampshire](http://www.york-net.com/80s/images/sts_51_l.gif)… Cartooniverse ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orders-captain/361827/28 "2006-06-23T22:01:21Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > The General in Surgeon General and Attorney General is an **adjective** – he’s the ranking surgeon or the ranking attorney of the government’s staff of surgeons and attorneys, the one with **general** authority over the entire field of practice. (Interestingly, “General” as a title for top brass military has a similar derivation; they’re “general officers” as opposed to those who serve under them, with specific duties as assigned by the general in charge.) True - but note that Wikipedia (correctly) states that “The Surgeon General functions under the direction of the Assistant Secretary for Health and holds the rank of Vice Admiral (VADM) and operationally heads the 6,000-member Commissioned Corps of the United States Public Health Service,” and that “The medical services of the United States Navy, United States Army and United States Air Force are each headed by a Surgeon General.” Note further that the U.S. Surgeon General’s grade (VADM in the USPHS Commissioned Corps) entitles him or her to a salute from junior officers and all enlisted personnel in any of the other six services; the Surgeons General of the other services may or may not outrank the U.S. Surgeon General (probably not). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orders-captain/361827/29 "2006-06-23T22:13:40Z")
> [@](#): > > So, Question Third Stage: Is there any universal value to ranks given within military organizations? Or any fundamental requirement for giving such ranks? In short, can my friends and I form a people’s militia and declare my dog Rear Admiral? As I understand it, you don’t have to obey orders from outside of your chain of command, even from the same service (though if a general or admiral outside your chain tells you to do something, it might not be a bad idea to do it anyway), and an officer of a different nation is likely to be outside your chain of command. However, you are expected to show some level of respect to foreign officers of various ranks, even in an enemy military (a general in a POW camp might get a cell to himself, and eat better than the grunts, and officers will still be addressed as “sir” by their captors). Just how much respect depends, of course, on how much recognition that nation and their military have, so I don’t think anyone’s likely to salute Rear Admiral Chico, Marietta Minutemen. ---
**Author:** ![Stupid\_Owl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Stupid\_Owl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stupid_Owl)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orders-captain/361827/30 "2006-06-23T22:46:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > As I understand it, you don’t have to obey orders from outside of your chain of command, even from the same service (though if a general or admiral outside your chain tells you to do something, it might not be a bad idea to do it anyway), and an officer of a different nation is likely to be outside your chain of command. Thanks, Chronos; I totally botched that third stage but I think you have a grasp on what I’m wondering. I guess somebody needs to distinguish for me the difference between “That captain outranks me.” and “I’m under that captain’s command.” In the NASA case, it seems obvious that test pilots of various services could be ordered by their respective commanders- whatever the pilot’s and commander’s respective ranks might be- to simply ‘follow this scientist’s instructions’; but somehow that seems too easy. It doesn’t sit right that an organization that resorted to having a CapCom would conduct interservice operations so informally. Getting people to salute my dog on a technicality wasn’t really the point of the joke; I just needed a hypothetical situation. The Salvation Army issue is a much better example of what I’m talking about; I just can’t get over the idea that ranks are completely arbitrary to the institution that bestows them. And I’m seriously interested in whether NASA maintains what I now realize I should refer to not so much as ‘ranks’ but as a ‘chain-of-command’. ---
**Author:** ![Stupid\_Owl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Stupid\_Owl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stupid_Owl)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orders-captain/361827/31 "2006-06-23T22:49:07Z")
…I just needed a hypothetical _absurd_ situation. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2006, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orders-captain/361827/32 "2006-06-24T01:21:10Z")
> [@](#): > > an officer of a different nation is likely to be outside your chain of command. Although there are exceptions. American troops serving in NATO will often have officers from other countries in their chain of command. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2006, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orders-captain/361827/33 "2006-06-24T02:02:02Z")
> [@Stupid\_Owl](#): > > In the NASA case, it seems obvious that test pilots of various services could be ordered by their respective commanders- whatever the pilot’s and commander’s respective ranks might be- to simply ‘follow this scientist’s instructions’; but somehow that seems too easy. Ah, but you see, the various military services do that on some scale every day – that is, attach someone _to a specific mission_ and place him under standing orders to follow the instructions of those in charge of that mission, whether or not they’re from his service. The military officers in the NASA astronaut corps essentially receive orders from their service’s command telling them their current duty is to serve as an astronaut and attaching them to NASA for performance of said duty. Contrary to earlier mentions, there WERE pre-Apollo flights with different-service officers: the first 2-man US flight, Gemini-3, had Grissom (USAF) teamed with Young (USN); Gemini 5 had Cooper (USAF) with Conrad (USN); and so on… In a NASA space mission, you’re doing a job for a civilian agency, and your hierarchy and place in the totem pole is due to your own standing in the Astronaut Corps and to requirements specific _to the mission_: Mission Commander, Pilot, Lead Mission/Payload Specialist, ordinary Mission/Payload Specialist (in Russian flights insert into the list Flight Engineer and (lately) paying tourist); the people in charge of personnel management will seek, when using military personnel, to avoid having those senior in rank occupy a junior billet. _In the phrase “Mission Commander”, the second word is NOT the designation of a military or paramilitary grade of rank(_), it’s a job description.\* It’s the man or woman in charge of doing what it takes on-the-scene to make the mission succeed. (\*TWO American ranks use the word “commander” in the rank name: “Commander” and “Lieutenant Commander”, corresponding to grades O5 and O4 of commissioned officer in the seafaring services: Navy, Coast Guard, USPHS and NOAA. The _rank_ of “Commander” is NOT the same thing as the _job_, of commander) The constant use of CapCom/Mission Control in spaceflight is due to the environment having started as, and still being mostly, that of experimental operations/test flight, where it is normal that the performance parameters will be monitored continuously from the ground, you have a programmed routine of what should happen, must get permission to deviate voluntarily so people know what to expect, and you have this extra pool of knowledge to fall back upon if you have the time to ask for assistance. As exemplified earlier, “command” as such is exercised only in extreme situations in that environment; and, since up until today we have worked with extremely small flight crews, it looks more like the “captain” of a bomber than that of a frigate. (On a small vessel such as a PT-boat, you’re likely to see the “captain” doing the steering and navigating hands-on, too). If things ever got to the point where a spacecraft can reliably operate with the ease and autonomy of your average ship or airliner AND with the size of crew you get on a mid-sized ship, you’ll have less need for CapCom to be piped in all the time and the commander will start behaving more like a ship’s skipper. The actual rank titles and precedences in militaries and paramilitaries are established by the traditions of the various spheres of operation wherein they are used. In militaries (and in paramilitaries that do a lot of work together with the armed services, such as are the USPHS and the NOAA Corps), tradition and the frequent necessity for coordinating meaningful interactions have led to an overall standard understanding of scales and relative positions across countries (between one same country’s services, the equivalencies are most oftenset by law). A squad leader will be something from corporal to staff sergeant; company commander will be somewhere from first lieutenant to major; the officer in charge of a large heavily armed surface warship will be a commander or captain – or rather they will hold such ranks/grades \*as are translated into American English according to a customary standard \* in those terms. When you go into civilian entities, things get fuzzier – For instance, airlines borrowed the terms “captain”, “first officer” and “second officer” for the pilot, copilot and flight engineer, and “purser” and “steward(ess)” for the cabin service staff from the preexisting language of shipping, mainly because they made a good match for the tradition of a merchant captain being responsible for the “ship” and all lives aboard it, and needing for it a clear chain of command. Thing is, the “captain” of the 30-seater doing a short-hop to Utica on a local charter carrier and the “captain” crossing the Pacific on a Qantas 747 have similar legal responsibility but different degrees of training. Police forces vary widely in this – depending on where in the world you are, “Inspector” can be anything from the 2nd-in-command of a major city department to the guy immediately above the street cop. Also, very often you will see county Sherriffs or city Police Chiefs in the USA, who command departments of maybe a couple hundred men, wearing the 4 star insignia that in the US military signifies a full O-10 General. Why? Because in each case they can call and dress themselves as they choose. (BTW, folks, do not let anyone actually in the Coast Guard hear it be said they’re not military.) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2006, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orders-captain/361827/34 "2006-06-24T09:47:39Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > The General in Surgeon General and Attorney General is an **adjective** – he’s the ranking surgeon or the ranking attorney of the government’s staff of surgeons and attorneys, the one with **general** authority over the entire field of practice. (Interestingly, “General” as a title for top brass military has a similar derivation; they’re “general officers” as opposed to those who serve under them, with specific duties as assigned by the general in charge.) The Surgeon General of the United States is the ranking officer of the Public Health Service’s Commissioned Corps. I don’t recall at the moment if that rank is equivalent to ADM, VADM, RADM (Upper Half), or RADM (Lower Half). I do recall that although the PHS’s Commissioned Corps has their own rank names, it’s quite common to refer to them by their Naval equivalents. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2006, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orders-captain/361827/35 "2006-06-26T07:20:27Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > The Surgeon General of the United States is the ranking officer of the Public Health Service’s Commissioned Corps. I don’t recall at the moment if that rank is equivalent to ADM, VADM, RADM (Upper Half), or RADM (Lower Half). I do recall that although the PHS’s Commissioned Corps has their own rank names, it’s quite common to refer to them by their Naval equivalents. The SGUS is at O-9 grade, and was so already before Koop had the job. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2006, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orders-captain/361827/36 "2006-06-26T08:19:47Z")
From the [Commissioned Officer’s Handbook](http://dcp.psc.gov/PDF_docs/CCPM_P62.pdf) {Warning: PDF} page 32: > [@](#): > > GRADES AND TITLES > Each officer holds a permanent grade and may also hold a higher temporary grade. The grades are coded with the letter “O” (signifying officer) followed by a digit in the range of 1-10. In the Corps, permanent grades are in the range of O-1 through O-6; temporary grades are in the range O-1 through O-10. An officer holding a temporary grade should be referred to by that grade. Officers holding > temporary grades above O-6 are referred to as flag grade officers. > > The PHS Act establishes the formal designations of grades within the commissioned corps. However, it is appropriate to use the equivalent Navy ranks orally when referring to Corps officers. This also applies to most documents (abbreviations optional). The PHS system is used for documents having legal > significance. Table 3 on page 33 of the Handbook provides the following rank titles: > [@](#): > > O-10 Assistant Secretary for Health > O-9 Surgeon General > O-8 Deputy Surgeon General > O-8 Assistant Surgeon General > O-7 Assistant Surgeon General > O-6 Director > O-5 Senior > O-4 Full > O-3 Senior Assistant > O-2 Assistant > O-1 Junior Assistant The note for O-4 is kind of funny: > [@](#): > > For the Full Grade (O-4) officer in all but the medical and dental categories, no grade title or > abbreviation is used, simply the word “Officer” (or the letter “O”) as in “Nurse Officer.” A Full grade > medical officer has the title “Surgeon” and a Full grade dental officer, “Dental Surgeon.” I suppose it would be even funnier if Full were all that there is to the title. Is the Assistant Secretary for Health actually a Uniformed position? I can’t seem to find a site explaining whether it’s a Uniformed position or if that’s merely an equivalent grade assigned for administrative convenience. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2006, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orders-captain/361827/37 "2006-06-26T11:21:55Z")
Monty, my hunch is that the O-10 position in the Public Health Corps is there to define **authority** rather than rank. In other words, there are very few people who can give a valid, legitimate order to the Chief of Staff of the Army or Air Force, and they do not include the Assistant Secretary for Financial Management (or whatever the chief service accountant may call himself). If he needs a particular bit of bookkeeping done, he has the choices of _requesting_ it or going to the Secretary to have it made an order. The Surgeon General, on the other hand, **is** under the orders of the Asst. Secy. for Health. While he may have a paramilitary structure for operations, it’s a civilian job answerable to legitimate civil authority. ---
**Author:** ![drhess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/94ad74/32.png) [@drhess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drhess)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2006, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orders-captain/361827/38 "2006-06-26T13:42:34Z")
How are inter-departmental or branch orders handled on the spot? If a [fill in the blank] office of [fill in the service] tells some peon to stop what he’s doing and he outranks the person that told the peon to do what he’s doing, but of another service, what happens? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2006, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orders-captain/361827/39 "2006-06-26T14:48:14Z")
I did an image search on Google and found out that at times the Surgeon General of the US has also concurrently been the Assistant Secretary for Health. Maybe that’s why it’s in the pay scale–in case one of the Commissioned Officers of the PHS is so appointed. ---
**Author:** ![UncleRojelio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unclerojelio/32/3160_2.png) [@UncleRojelio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleRojelio)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2006, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orders-captain/361827/40 "2006-06-26T15:21:19Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > I believe the Federation was a civilian agency, not a military one. The Enterprise’s mission had nothing to do with warfare. It was outfitted with weapons for self-defense, but it was not a battleship. No, the Enterprise was a [Constitution class Heavy Cruiser](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_cruiser). There were also Frigates, [Battleships](http://www.kitsune.addr.com/SF-Conversions/Rifts-Trek-Ships/Federation_USS_Excelsior.htm) , and [Dreadnaughts](http://www.shipschematics.net/cgi-bin/startrek/federation.cgi?Dreadnaught) . Pretty provacative ship class names for a peaceful civilian agency. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orders-captain/361827.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orders-captain/361827.md?page=3)